facing a frizzen?

[LH]

I'm going to make my first attempt at facing one  and just wanted to see if anyone could offer some tips?  I have a piece of high carbon steel that is an old blade out of a plane that I'm going to use. 

[James Wilson Everett]

LH,

Here is how I do it.  Bear in mind that I am what is called on this site an "extreme traditionalist" so my work is not as pretty as some of the great artists, but it is traditional 18th c.  I simply take a piece of hardenable steel, cut and bend it to fit the old frizzen.  In this case I thinned the old frizzen face to make room for the face material.  Then I drilled & countersunk 5 rivet holes (there is one at the top which is difficult to see in the photo).  I rivet the face onto the frizzen using wrought iron rivets, these are not hardenable.  Dress and smooth all surfaces, heat the frizzen to about 1500F, quench in brine.  This process could reasonably be done under field conditions with very little tooling, although I did this in my shop.  The soft rivets seem to have no effect at all on the performance of the lock.

There is a drawback with this simple approach.  The thin face seems to cool at a faster rate than he thicker frizzen body when quenched.  The face always seems to separate slightly at the top & bottom of the plate.  Looking closely at the photo you may be able to see this, the two parts were so tight together before quench that you could see no separation, after quench there is a slight gap.  On originals you see this gap also.







I hope that your facing task is successful, let us know about it.

Jim

[Long John]

I have faced a couple of Brown Besses and TC flintlocks.  I don't have any pictures.

I took 1095 steel that I bought at Dixon"s and I cut and a piece slightly over-size.  I then bent it to fit the existing frizzen face.  Once bent to the proper curve, I clamped the steel to the frizzen and filed the edges to the proper shape.  I then heated the steel bright red and quenched in Marvel Mystery Oil.  I checked with a file and verified hardness.  I then polished both the frizzen face and the back surface of the hardened face steel bright.  Flux and tin both with silver/tin solder.  The melting temperature of the solder is below the annealing temperature of the steel.  I place the two tinned parts together and hold together with a spring clamp.  With a propane torch I heat the two until the solder flows, no more.

They all have worked just fine.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Hungry Horse]

 Pay close attention to James instructions regarding thinning the frizzen, to retain the proper geometry. My first attempt at facing a frizzen went quite well, other than the part where the shower of sparks didn't go into the pan. Live and learn.

                  Hungry Horse

[Jim Kibler]

James,

Traditional in terms of construction and beauty are not exclusive of each other.  If you accept this, you must not have a very high regard of original work.  Magnificient works were and continue to be created with these methods.

Jim

[44-henry]

I never really have understood the practice of facing a frizzen. Why wouldn't a deep case hardening been more desirable. Seems like it would cost less for a gunsmith to go this route than take the time to face a frizzen both in time and materials. How common was this practice?

[Jim Kibler]

If the frizzen is substantially worn, which does occur, it makes sense to add a "sole".  I've see them worn to the point that the edges were sharp or broken out.  In these cases adding material is the best fix.  I think it was quite common to just re-carburize a frizzen if things weren't worn too bad.   

[Hungry Horse]

 Deep case hardening does not give you the ability to draw the frizzen to the optimum degree of hardness. Case hardening is only twenty thousandths thick. Half soling is better.

                      Hungry Horse

[Jim Kibler]

Mr. Hungry Horse,

Yes, you can temper a carburized case.  No, case hardening is not necessarily .020" thick.  Higher temperatures and longer hold times yields deeper cases.

Jim

[pathfinder]

I kinda like the riveted sole. do the rivet's interfere with the flint at all? Are they countersunk?

I agree Jim,some "primitive" craftsmen do some really elegant work in the most "primitive of surrounding's and tool's.

My Grandpa always said "It's a poor craftsman who blames his tool's". A bit more eloquent in Polish!

[Canute Rex]

I have heard of people using pieces of broken clock spring. It is thin, smooth, high quality steel. I have also seen frizzen soling done with countersunk brass rivets.

My frizzen is starting to show a depression where the flint first hits. Maybe it is time for a sole.

[James Wilson Everett]

Pathfinder,

Thanks for the detailed question.  Yes, both ends of the rivets are countersunk, on the face plate side they are countersunk quite a bit, at least half the thickness of the plate.  They do not seem to interfere at all with the flint action.

A comment about the casehardening and carburizing of frizzens.   When we case harden using an 18th c method, only carbon is added to the metal surface.  In this case hardening, or carburizing, the steel surface acts just like spring steel and can be stress relieved, annealed, hardened and tempered just like 1090 or 1075 steel.  When we use a modern case hardening compound there is more than just carbon being added to the metal, I believe that much of modern case hardening compounds actually nitride the metal to increase hardness.  Now this process acts differently than the traditional method and you may not be able to draw or temper the part.  

[mountainman70]

I am about to open a Pandora's box-anyone here remember the SuperFrizzen material of years past?Lord have mercy,you could set yourself on fire with this stuff.I believe the builder of the rifle I experienced still glows in the dark.Dave

[Hungry Horse]

Mountainman70;

  If that is the stuff I think it is, some of it was made from spent uranium, and is considered quite a health danger today. It could strike a spark with a flint that was a dull as a marble though. The sparks were very bright, and very white, but in all actuality I found that a good steel frizzen made for more consistent ignition.

                     Hungry Horse

[Bob Roller]

That frizzen material was supposedly depleted uranium. Back in
"the days"of carbon deficient frizzens,it was a solution to a problem that
should have been cured by the foundries that cast them for us. I never
used it and for a long time I would not take orders for flintlocks because
of the low quality of frizzens being made.To be sure,there weren't that many being produced
but the idea of no quality control at any level and the crappy attitude of the owners of
these foundries was something I had no need for.
Don Davis who with his wife,Addie had a shop in Friendship called Fort Davis and Don
wrote about "wildcatting a flintlock"and condemning the practice in no uncertain terms.
I also think it's an absurdity.

Bob Roller

[LH]

Is it possible to "cook out the carbon"  by repeated tries at hardening and tempering?  I don't understand all I know about steel and sparks,  but I can tell when a frizzen is sparking or not and some just don't want to spark much.  I shoot two flintlocks a lot (several thousand rounds / yr.) and when I see the face starting to get gouged out I will sand or grind it back smooth.  That is usually after several hundred shots.  I have worn two frizzens completely in half doing this,  but it probably takes over 100,000 shots by my estimate.  Fifteen years or so for me.  Another question I've wondered about is how much carbon is best?  I see "high carbon steel" advertised with anywhere from about .9 to 2.0 % carbon.  Is there a best amount for a frizzen, or will any hardenable steel work the same as any other? 

[James Wilson Everett]

LH,

Good questions, let me give my opinion.  Yes, depending on the method of heating, the carbon content of the surface of steel can be reduced.  This is especially true when heating the steel in an electric kiln or furnace.  If hardening is done in an electric furnace, it is a good practice to polish off the surface which may be carbon depleted to get to the well hardened steel just under the surface.

When heating in a wood/charcoal/coke forge you do not see this carbon depletion.

When heating with an oxyacetylene (welding torch) be sure to adjust the flame to a carbon rich flame.  This is when there is a visible pale blue flame tip just beyond the bright blue main flame.  With the flame adjusted to carbon rich you will not get any carbon depletion as you heat the part.

As far as "high carbon steel" the range you list in your question is really at the high end of carbon.  0.9% carbon steel is as high as I use and many others use a lower carbon content with good results.  The steel called 1095 has 0.95% carbon, the steel called 1075 has 0.75% carbon.  Either will get as hard as you wish for a frizzen.  There are many other types of hardenable carbon steel.

I use1095 and consider it best just because it is readily available, is very similar to the steel used in the 18th c, and I am confident in the heat treatment I use.  Other craftsmen can say the same about the steel that they use.

Jim

[Chuck Burrows]

When heating in a wood/charcoal/coke forge you do not see this carbon depletion.

Jim

With all due respect but that's not completely true - carbon depletion is a matter of time and temperature as well as the heat source, but if you leave a piece of carbon steel to heat too hot or too long it will deplete the carbon content - that's based on 50 years of making knives and the experience of over heating the steel.

As for carbon content - yep the last two numbers are the NOMINAL carbon content - but it can and will vary per batch of steel - to be sure of the actual content as well as any alloying agents ask for a copy of the steels chemistry - I've had 1095 from the foundry with carbon as low as .88% and as high as 1.01%.
While I know a lot of guys use 1095 due to the (supposed?) higher carbon but frankly 1080/1084 will spark as well in 98% of the cases (based on comparisons of both frizzens and fire strikers I've made and tested over the last 40+ years) and is easier to heat treat due to a longer time to drop the nose from the high temp to the austentizing temp.

[Elnathan]

I believe that carbon depletion in a forge also depends on the type of fuel - coal tends to decarborize steel faster than charcoal - and where it is placed in the fire. i haven't done enough blacksmithing to confirm this by experience, though.