extra bolt to hooked tang?

[JB2]

I thought I had read someone had added an extra bolt, up from the bottom, to the bottom of a hooked breech tang.  Maybe on a Hawken.  I think this was in the 'bottom flat' area of the tang?  I've searched, but am obviously using the wrong search terms. 

I just picked up an 'almost-finished' Pedersoli sxs 12 gauge, and was thinking of adding an extra bolt from the bottom, through the trigger plate to the bottom of the standing breech tang.  I now see that Brockway does the same in his book "Recreating the Double Barrel Muzzle Loading Shotgun".  If necessary, can I add metal (MIG weld) to the back side of that bottom area of the tang if there's not enough thickness to support a threaded hole?  this is a cast tang, so those precautions would need to be taken for welding.   Any recommendation on what this bolt size should be?

As always, Thanks guys!

Jim

[Bob Roller]

I have a full scale drawing from an Alex Henry that shows an 8x32 screw coming up thru the trigger bar into the bottom of
the standing tang.I used this when I made up a sorta/kinda copy of the Henry and it is a good idea on any hook breech muzzle
loader.If I were to do it again,I'd use an 8x40 thread so there would be a little less risk of breaking a tap in a blind hole but to
take advantage of this you'd have to have an 8x40 screw. Countersink the hole,a #29 drill size to the depth of one full thread and
that will make the tap easier to start +a threading fluid. I use Rapid Tap for all such work including milling and turning on a lathe.

Bob Roller

[JB2]

Thank you Mr. Roller!  I couldn't ask ask for a better description.  Now I just gotta 'make it work'. 

[Dphariss]

This bolt into the bottom of the standing breech was apparently fairly common in England.
The hook breech is a variable when it comes to accuracy and I assume this was a effort the address this.


Dan

[JB2]

a-HA!  Thanks Dan.  I hadn't thought of that.  I was thinking for strength and movement, not making the jump from movement to lost accuracy. 

I was wondering how well I should make this bolt fit, now thinking it should fit very well, with as little movement as possible.  I'll need to add a little wood back in to make up for the factory inletting.  I know I might not notice a difference with a smooth-bore, but I have a hankering to build up a set of rifled barrels for this in the future.  That thread about regulating double-barrels has me intrigued!

[Bob Roller]

The superb fitting of the hook and the tang on a top of the line English gun
is a work of art and the stabilizing screw coming up thru the trigger bar into
the lower part of the tang is just an added touch of enhancement to an already
superb job.I would no hesitate to incorporate it into any rifle that uses the hook
breech system.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Jim,
Here is a little hint about locating that verticle screw and you may already know it but
what I did was to drill and tap the hole in the bottom ot the tang and then make a
pointed stub screw and install it finger snug so the point protrudes just below the edge of the
tang.Assemble the barrel and tang and press them both into the stock so an indentation is made
in the wood.Remove the barrel and tang and carefully drill the hole where the indented mark is.
I use a small pilot hole to tell for certain where it will exit,hopefully in the center of the trigger bar.

Bob Roller

[T*O*F]

The trigger plates on English guns are specifically designed with a swell into which your screw can be installed, usually the round part of the pineapple finial.  Your plate may not have this feature in the correct place and may be too thin where your screw goes.  It is more complex than just drilling a hole and installing a screw.



I had to hard solder a new extension on a custom rifle because no existing parts matched the location and then file a new finial.








You will also probably have to reduce the size of the screw head and run a square end mill into your countersunk hole slightly.

[smylee grouch]

So on those fine English guns, did that screw coming up from the trigger plate go by or in some other fashion close to the lock bolts so as to require the removal of the bottom screw in order to get the lock bolt/screw out?

[T*O*F]

NO

[Bob Roller]

Not that I ever heard of nor have I seen such a thing. The screw
securing the tang is nowhere near to interfering with anything else.

Bob Roller

[JB2]

TOF, there is a pineapple finial on the front of the trigger bar.  Don't know yet if it'll line up with the screw when the holes go in. 

Thanks for that tip, Mr Roller.  I was wondering about getting things to line up.  Looks like lots of thinkerin', lines drawn, careful measuring and drill-press set up are in order. 

[kutter]

Here's another project gun I have lying about. It has the feature being discussed,
A few pics attached.

You can see in the one of the hole in the trigger guard that the triggerplate itself is extended forward underneath it as reinforcement.
It also has a standard top tang screw.







Sorry 'bout the dust bunnys.
Back to the to-do pile you go you charming beauty.

[T*O*F]

Don't know yet if it'll line up with the screw when the holes go in.

You had better determine that before any holes go in.  Said screw has to be perpendicular with the standing breech into which it screws.  It needs to pull straight down when tightened, otherwise it will pull the breech and cause accuracy problems as well as setting up undue stresses on the wood from recoil which can lead to splitting of your stock.

English guns appear to be deceptively simple, but I guarantee they are not.

[keweenaw]

That screw also prevents you from bending the standing breech at the tang screw hole if the barrel happens to bind in the hook region.  One of the problems with the English hook breech, and trigger plate that Track sells is that the proportions are wrong such that you can't get that screw where you need it and have the trigger in correct alignment with the sear.  Is necessary to piece in the trigger plate.

Tom

[JB2]

thanks for all the great pics, tips and descriptions guys.  Really shows what needs to happen to make it right.  Definitely be doing lots of measuring and drawing lots of lines to see if it'll line up.  Since this thing came with 'factory hogged out' inletting, I'll have to ask myself some real hard questions about how far to take this if it's not a simple 'drill 3 holes' modification.  And it all looks so simple in the pics!  HA!