English Proof Marks

[Majorjoel]

This information is just what I have been looking for! Thank you Steve for this link. Mr. Puleo, your research and work in this field is also very much appreciated! The American Longrifles Forum is the best place on the internet!

[boman]

Just glad to help guys ---This is pure speculation on my part but the "tombstone marks" could be the personal stamp of the individual who was tasked with the inspection and responsibility of actually proofing the barrel.  When you think about it, the proof house was certifying the barrel was safe and met acceptable standards but they had liability and accountability to deal with(just like today-think lawsuit ) and it would be nice to know who was the actual inspector if this were the case.  It could also have been a way to be paid if one were paid by the piece.
    I've done some personal research on the Belgium 20th century firearms industry due to my interest in the FN company (in particular the P-35 Browning hi-power pistol) and every inspector who worked for the company was assigned a letter of the alphabet which was stamped on the part when that particular inspector inspected ithat particular part.  I see no reason why this concept could not have originated at a much earlier time including the early 19th century.  I also believe it could be further confirmed or disputed by a thorough research of proof house records and practices in England and on the continent if someone were so inclined.

Steve

[JV Puleo]

I very much doubt the marks are connected to the proof house, if only because there are any number of guns that must have been proved in the same time period that lack them. In fact, most guns from that period don't have them.

But... were I compelled to guess, I think it might be possible that they represent individual makers or consortiums of makers of standard items that were then sold on to the recognized "gunmakers" after proof. This would have allowed them to recognize and collect their own stuff from the proof house without marking it with their names. They may have been "cryptic" on purpose. Its is probably not coincidental that the marks appear at precisely the time the new proof house opens. If we knew what the internal operating procedures were, we might be able to understand why they could have been needed.

Liability wasn't an issue. In fact, to this day, if your gun blows up in proof thats your problem. I have been told (by someone who frequents the establishment) that even if they make a mistake they accept no responsibility. I had a tour of the place a couple of years ago, including the lab where they work out the proof loads. The main building has hardly changed at all since it was built in 1813.

[Hungry Horse]

 Another point that should be mentioned here, is, that many trade gun manufacturers had no qualms at all with copying other countries proof, and view marks, If it served their purpose. I have seen guns with versions of British proofs on the top of the barrel, and Belgian proofs on the bottom. One such gun was a very well preserved late flint that was found in Alaska. It had a lock that was very much like the one we are talking about. Between the cock, and the pan, it had a top view of a honey bee, with the letters B, and A on the wings. This gun might have been unfired, and if it was fired at all, it was very little. There was still a bit of a burr where the touch hole had been bored with a less than sharp bit.

                         Hungry Horse

[JV Puleo]

I know of no examples of B'ham copying Liege marks but dozens of examples of fake B'ham marks on Liege guns. Remember, Liege was the "cheap" source. British guns were more expensive because the British workers made more money. Quite a lot more actually, enough so that Liege was able to break into the cheap pistol and side-by-side shotgun export business. There is a good reason why most cheap Belgian shotguns have spurious British names on them... in the popular mind, that was a sign of quality. All of these guns with double proofs were intended for sale out of Europe, usually in America but Latin America and other parts of the world are also likely. B'ham lost much of its African trade gun business to Liege primarily because even the cheapest B'ham product cost more than a similar Belgian gun and, as the guns were not being sold in Britain, no law was violated by supplying them with fake British marks. It was also likely that this was literally for show only as the Belgian proof was just about as rigorous as the British one.