Carving Drawing

[J. Talbert]

Thanks for the picture of the original.  That clears up a lot.

I'll just say that I think that Bill's carving and Dave's drawing are both better than the original. 
I'm a rank amateur compared to Bill and many others here, but I would not try to copy that carving without attempting to improve the design.

Jeff

[P.W.Berkuta]

Thanks for the picture of the original.  That clears up a lot.

I'll just say that I think that Bill's carving and Dave's drawing are both better than the original. 
I'm a rank amateur compared to Bill and many others here, but I would not try to copy that carving without attempting to improve the design.

Jeff

Ha, ha, ha -- I also think that the original need some revamping -- that rear scroll is poor and an eye sore -- !

[J.Cundiff]

I understand... and others have advised not to get creative, but rather to just try to copy exactly an original, which is what I'm doing. I'm trying to limit my improvements purely to smoothness and proportion... as it's obvious the original has been beat up some over the years. Everyone has different tastes, and I've always really enjoyed this particular carving, flaws and all. Funny you say you're a rank amateur... this is my first rifle build! 

[rich pierce]

My advice with those thin tendrils is to start wider than you intend them to be.  That allows you to make adjustments without them getting thready.  Close study of many originals gives the impression they were sketched and carved and cleaned up in a matter of a couple hours, all carving included.  Now we have more time to play around.  Some outstanding original builders almost always had great designs, though.  Probably a matter of giftedness and training.

[Jim Kibler]

I'll agree that this isn't probably the best "Shroyer" to work from.  In fact, given the large amount of other work which is designed so much better, I might suggest that he may not have done this work.  Perhaps an apprentice?  Here is a practice stock I carved based on some Shroyer work.  It was drawn and carved as part of a demonstration in about two hours, so it's not perfect, but decent.  It is similar to your pattern.  As a critique of my own work, I would try to make the scalloped, wavy line a little less steep and stretch out to the rear a bit more.  I will suggest considering some of the things I mentioned in my previous post.  It may seem a little vague, but I feel pretty strongly about the approach.  If you have any questions about things, just ask.

[Bob Roller]

A SCRATCHLOCK! Down here in the tropics of West Virginia they are CLATCHLOCKS.

Bob Roller

[PPatch]

Allow me to throw a couple of cents worth in here Mr Cundiff. Your drawing of the Schroyer carving has improved greatly since you first posted it, you are getting there. I wondered why your upper right squiggle was angled so different from the Schroyer so I brought both your latest drawing and the Schroyer original you posted into Photoshop and compared the two after rotating and aligning the combs level left to right. It was immediately obvious that what is throwing you off is the angle of the back of your cheek piece as compared to Schroyer. Schroyer's has more of a "rake" to it which lends its self to extending the upper elements out and allows the upper right line to angle up to the butt plate at about 30 degrees. Yours has to reach for that corner and looks somewhat awkward while it does so. You have mentioned that you intend to soften the cheek piece, good, you might consider slightly increasing the angle on the rear of it also.

It is obvious that you can draw what you see and that your eye is developing. Keep at it, what you are essentially doing is learning a visual language and just like learning any language it takes practice and persistence.

Good luck with your ultimate carving.

dave

[Acer Saccharum]

It is obvious that you can draw what you see and that your eye is developing. Keep at it, what you are essentially doing is learning a visual language and just like learning any language it takes practice and persistence.

Good luck with your ultimate carving.

dave

Dave, this is a really good observation. Drawing is a great tool for those interested in carving and engraving. A comfort level with drawing helps the artist express his/her ideas without actually ruining material.   He gets to look at it from different angles, and can show others, as is happening here.

Drawing over and tweaking the drawing may be frustrating when one just wants to get the rifle done, BUT! the practice gives the artist a real familiarity with the job for when it comes time to carve. During drawing, your hand and eye become practiced at developing the curves and shapes. This practiced eye helps when you get to the carving.

Good luck! and keep us posted!

Tom

[Tom Currie]

I'm late to the party here but I very much agree the skinny tendril thing is hard to pull off. First off not making parallel lines when you don't have much width to work with is really difficult. Jim Kiblers carving is a bit wider than Schroyer's and is very pleasing to the eye. I think that's good food for thought.

I did a Scroyer based carving pattern like this once and was not particularly happy with the result based on the difficulty of pulling it off.

Keep practice drawing even if it delays your build.

[davebozell]

I agree with the practice drawing.  I'd also like to add that "practice" carving is also a good idea.  I am working on a design that I've drawn about 5 times now.  I have also "practiced" carving in on a piece of scrap maple a couple times now.  It's helped me get the technique down and also helped with when to know when to resharpen chisels.  I'm still struggling with my 1mm #16 Vee chisel.  I had no idea the edge would be so fragile.  I'm having to work on my technique to keep from chewing up the edge quickly.

[Jerry V Lape]

Dave,

How are you using that tiny little V chisel ?  I started out thinking that the tiny little chisels were needed but quickly learned it is very hard to keep them sharp and especially to make cuts which came out smooth.  For little detail work a 5mm dual sided skew works much better for me.  Most of my carving is now done with 12 mm flat chisel, and #2 gouge.  I do have a selection of gouges of varying radii as I prefer the stab in method of outlining and they also are handy for modeling the carving.  Also the V and u shapes at the cutting edge of a 1mm and 5mm or 8mm are the same size and the larger ones easier to sharpen for me. 

[davebozell]

I had been pushing the tiny Vee by hand, but I think tapping with a light mallet might be better.  I watched part of the Dangler video and he uses a mallet for better control (and a larger Vee chisel).  I've also got a couple larger Vees that could be used with a mallet.  I think that's what I'll try next.  Practice, practice, practice.....

[Jerry V Lape]

Suggest you go to something like a 5mm v or viener if you are going to use outlining that way.  Full length tool with a mallet does provide better control than the hand pushed tool in my experience.  I have become a convert to stab in method though in the last couple years as it gives me greater control.  Mileage for others may vary. 

[Don Getz]

Artistic ability is something that is difficult to learn, most of the good ones were born with it.  I can recall talking to Monte
Mandarino and he told me that drawing, or laying out the carving on a gun was the most difficult part of carving.  You can
see some of his work in Bob Weil's book on Contemporary Makers..........Don

[J.Cundiff]

When I do the next one, I completely plan on buying a very nice set of gouges and chisels and using the stab-in method.

[J. Talbert]

You don't NEED an elaborate set of gouges to stab in a carving pattern.  Check out the tool that Gary Brumfield shows on his website.http://www.flintriflesmith.com/ToolsandTechniques/shopmadechisels.htm

While you're there, check out Gary's PowerPoint presentation on carving.  
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/images/relief.carving.for.web2.ppt

Jeff

Thanks Gary!