Author Topic: breech plug torque  (Read 7583 times)

Offline Ken G

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breech plug torque
« on: April 28, 2013, 02:12:08 AM »
Guys,
The recent thread regarding breech plugs makes me ask...........Is there an official torque for tightening a breechplug?  I pretty much use a 12 inch crescent wrench unless someone has already crush fitted and I'm trying to get out at which point I fix it so it doesn't take that much pressure to put it back.   
I assume at some point you can weaken theads by over tightening?   ???
Cheers,
Ken
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2013, 04:27:34 AM »
Official torque on breech plugs seems to be determined by a pet gorillas.   Appears they are popular pets with barrel makers.   ;D

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2013, 05:02:31 AM »
I just LOVE the "pet gorilla" comment thanks for the laugh ;D. Getting back to the torque issue, most of the plugs that either I have done or have had to remove were tight - very tight. I have never used a torque wrench even though I have quite a few. I did stretch the threads on one plug that I installed and had to make a new one. I tried to seat the plug with a 2 foot "cheater pipe" on the end of a adjustable wrench. I think the plug's threads were less than 75%.
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Offline Pete G.

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2013, 06:06:28 PM »
It has always seemed to me that the "gorilla torque" was excessive, especially on a joint that has to hold against pressure. If you need a joint to hold against 10K psi, it doesn't seem to be a good idea to tighten it to a 5K psi static load. OTH, we are dealing with relatively soft steel here and we need high enough thread pressure will iron out any irregularities and/or built in thread tolerances. The torque needs to be enough without being too much. Now just how would we go about measuring that?

Offline B.Habermehl

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2013, 07:39:35 PM »
Some of the prebreeched barrels I have encountered were clearly torqued to above 100 ft. lbs. of torque. That being said, when I breech a barrel up from scratch with a 5/8 in shank I guesstimate that I torque it to around 50 to 75 foot lbs or a bit less, using a old fashioned monkey wrench, with about a 12 inch handle. BJH
BJH

Offline Dphariss

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2013, 07:44:06 PM »
How tight is not as important as to how good everything mates together.
I suppose I use 40-60 on most but in the course of fitting may use more but final fit is not all that tight. 12" Crescent with good pressure. The breeches are made of pretty soft stuff and the barrels even if made of 4150 are or should be annealed so using a torque level meant for a grade 8 bolt and nut is not a good idea.
Over torquing can stretch the barrel at the breech face area or stretch the plug if its a patent breech design.
TC used to, I as told, machine install the breeches and this tended to over stress the "patent"  breech at the point where the barrel and breech met. To the point that they would sometimes break off at that point if removal was attempted.
Moderation and careful fitting is good advise in fitting breeches and other parts.

Dan
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Offline Majorjoel

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2013, 08:15:48 PM »
It is always a great feeling to get the tang side directly opposite the barrel makers name flat!!  Much patience and consentrated effort is involved. On a current barrel I have been working on I had to flatten and widen the tang out a bit to fit an exhisting already cut tang mortise. I decided to do the heating and hammering on it after it was tightly breeched. When I had finished the needed expansion the plug became loose as a goose and had side to side wiggle as I tightened it all the way to the full threaded end. Had to scrap this breech plug and start over. I was lucky the damage was to the plug and not the barrel threads.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 08:29:48 PM by Majorjoel »
Joel Hall

razor62

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2013, 08:54:28 PM »
It is always a great feeling to get the tang side directly opposite the barrel makers name flat!!  Much patience and consentrated effort is involved. On a current barrel I have been working on I had to flatten and widen the tang out a bit to fit an exhisting already cut tang mortise. I decided to do the heating and hammering on it after it was tightly breeched. When I had finished the needed expansion the plug became loose as a goose and had side to side wiggle as I tightened it all the way to the full threaded end. Had to scrap this breech plug and start over. I was lucky the damage was to the plug and not the barrel threads.

I Feel your pain. I recently did the nearly same thing. My problem was that the plug went past TDC by another 1/8 turn. I solved my issue with two thin brass washers and a little extra torque.

Offline Blackpowder Barbie

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2013, 10:21:30 PM »
Just a heads up to Rice Barrel Co. uses an18" wrench to install their plugs.  It typically takes that size wrench to put the plug back in to the witness marks.
Barbie Chambers-Phillips

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2013, 10:29:36 PM »
If one tightens threads too much, you bring them close to a point where a little more torque, and the threads will strip. An old friend of mine used to say 'Tight's tight, and too tight's broke'.


I have seen a lot of old barrels that had a rattly plug. I imagine you'd get a puff smoke in your eyes when you fired these babies.


Snug with a 12" is what I use. Don't go past the mark, you'll ruin the fit. If you're one of these guys that takes the plug out a lot, you'll wear the fit out, and the plug will need to go past the mark to be tight.

So don't take your plug out, ever.

Also don't take a drum in and out for same reason. It will go past zero, and then you gotta shim it. But I don't use drums, so I don't sweat over this.  :D
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Offline Ken G

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2013, 11:01:02 PM »
Sounds like the proper torque is somewhere around that applied by a pet gorrilla or healthy young/old man using a 12 to an 18 inch crescent wrench.   :D :D
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2013, 12:10:52 AM »
Has anyone ever broken (shear is a better word) the plug off in the barrel? I once sheared off a white lightnin touch hole liner using a small pipe wrench. It was a clean break and was able to file it flush like normal but I now do not put that much torque on a liner. :-[
Joel Hall

Offline shortbarrel

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2013, 12:33:23 AM »
my brother and me make all our barrels or take an old wrought iron barrel and refurbish it. black powder is very forgiving, but a cheater wrench and heavy hand leads to a blow out. the plug should be as long as the thread diameter. safety is the first thing, tradition comes last.

Offline Pete G.

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2013, 05:06:49 PM »
Has anyone ever broken (shear is a better word) the plug off in the barrel? I once sheared off a white lightnin touch hole liner using a small pipe wrench. It was a clean break and was able to file it flush like normal but I now do not put that much torque on a liner. :-[

A plug is solid whereas a liner is not, plus the line cut around the outside of the liner weakens it further still in that spot, perhaps by design. I have alway been scared that the fine threads into soft barrel steel (along with lubrication)seems to make it easy to overtighten and strip the threads. I screw them in snug with a pair of pliers and then peen the edges after cutting off the outside part. So far, no problems, but I am wondering if that's tight enough.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2013, 05:46:58 PM »
If one tightens threads too much, you bring them close to a point where a little more torque, and the threads will strip. An old friend of mine used to say 'Tight's tight, and too tight's broke'.


I have seen a lot of old barrels that had a rattly plug. I imagine you'd get a puff smoke in your eyes when you fired these babies.


Snug with a 12" is what I use. Don't go past the mark, you'll ruin the fit. If you're one of these guys that takes the plug out a lot, you'll wear the fit out, and the plug will need to go past the mark to be tight.

So don't take your plug out, ever.

Also don't take a drum in and out for same reason. It will go past zero, and then you gotta shim it. But I don't use drums, so I don't sweat over this.  :D

I use an old 12" wide jaw Crescent with brass padding. I also tend to compression fit the last 1/16-1/8 turn. With high pressure lube and repeated tightening the plug will seat to the proper point and will stop there with moderate torque and it will be very difficult to then turn it past the index once installed and marked even if removed several times .
This will not necessarily work on thin wall shotgun barrels where the bore is simply tapped for the plug.
I have a couple of rifles that have had the breeches out 2-3 times with no problem with them getting loose.
But if installed too loose they will easily turn past  when reinstalled.
Its a moderation thing. Too loose bad, too tight unnecessary.
Excessive torque will also require excess force to hold the barrel which can CRUSH IT especially if the barrel is swamped or tapered or thin walled.

Dan
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Frank Savage

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2013, 12:07:09 AM »
Sorry for some not-so-stellar expressions, but itīs a bit too late for me to make somehow clear what I mean, while trying to be straight and simple to understand AND be a kind of Cicero...


From what I have yet put together to now:
The torque is determined mainly by the ratio of the bore to big thread area, area of the shoulder in front of plug threads which is in contact with the breechplug face, barrel and breechplug steel yield strenght and breechplug thread pitch.
(Yield strenght-pressure/tension, under which a plastic deformation becomes permanent. In most steels it corelates with tension under which the plastic deformation starts to occur-the most important point for fruther paragraphs)

The object of a barrel maker should be as not to let any gases into the thread upon firing, since it may leave there some residue, attract moist, start corrosion and after corroding out some of the material of the threads, compromise the seal-ability (and later strenght) of the breechjob.
The sealing is done by the fact that the small diameter of the breechplug thread is a bit bigger than the groove dia of the barrel-this is made by proper selection of the thread to caliber and by the shoulder on the front end of thread, where the breech face contacts barrel.

Now-upon firing, the pressure buildup presses back against the breechplug with considerable force, using primarily the area given by crossection area of the bore profile. With the plug just screwed into place (like by hand or small key), thereīs enought force to cause a plastic deformation of the plug-which backs at the face a little, leaving a gap into the threads and letting the gases to push against whole frontal area of the plug-not just the bore area. This can be serious and deadly problem, since the area (and forces at given pressure) can be much higher. Exactly to ratio of bore area:big dia. of the thread area.
The backing of the plug consists of "shortage" of the plug (caused by the pressure) and some bend/yaw of the thread ridges upon load. Small moves, but enought to let the gasses (and pressure) into the thread.

So the main object is, to build such a tension in the thread, which "compresses" the plug face against the shoulder with a bit higher force than which the possible charge can produce (on given bore area). So the plastic deformation is permanently there, to make it greater needs more force than the given load pressure can produce on the bore area.
This means that upon firing, the breechplug face does not move backwards any tiny bit, remains firmly seated against the shoulder and no way it let any gasses behind the breech face and into the thread.

The torque is then determined by thread dia. and mainly pitch-with smaller pitch, smaller torque needed, coarser pitch-greater torque needed. As far as I know, torques for defined pull-load in bolts (or push-loads in breechplug) of given thread are tabelated for construction uses.
Then itīs simple math.

Whatīs $#*! of no-easy is, to fit the breechplug in such a way that the real force is applied at the breech face-to-shoulder contact area and NOT at the breechplug to back of the barrel joint (the one vissible on the outer surface). This joint should be just as tight as to be just closed, there should be no tension between the plug and the back of the barrel to speak of, just enought not to let the rain in.


Rattly plugs in old barrels can be from that the gasses could flow into the thread and/or the thread had incorrect preload, so upon each round fired, the thread was bent a bit back and then returned. This led to fatigue and you can bet that the thread geometry is a bit different now (pushed a bit back) then when it was new.
The tolerance and fit of the male/female threads can help a bit to solve this-the closer, the better
(Well, I have heard about an original which had the poor breeching and threading job solved by a hemp string. The owner happily shot it several times a month for several years, since it was otherways in pristine condition, until decision for a very throughout cleaning and removing the breechplug. Rest of the story said something about a kind of major case of upside-down stomach...)
It seems to me that pinning the barrels with such thin pins as one can see on originals comes from calculation that if the plug threads give up, the wood in the wrist area and the breech itself would hold in place enought so the pins get sheared and the barrel would fly forward. The chances to survive a gas blowout, blasted a bit to sides by the breechplug are way higher than recieving the breechplug and wrist slivers directly into eye. As well, this idea seems to me consistent with the fact that swamped barreled rifles are those of higher end of the spectrum, thus probably breeched by more skilled and caring machinist.



I hope this wonīt bring some confusement, I think this would need some pictures to show some what-ifs, because writen it can be too abstract for someone without some basics of Material Science. Also, I may add a disclaimer that above paragraphs are not how-to; it does not mention the relationships between the preload (by breechplug tightening)+loads upon firing, itīs effects on tension and forces in the thread and breech portion of the barrel and consequences for barrel wall thickness etc. If you donīt see it, take this post as a partial, incomplete information.

EDIT
I should have wrote "Strenght and Flexibility" instead of Material Science...
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 12:46:40 AM by Frank Savage »

Copperclad

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2013, 02:31:31 PM »
Hi Frank
nice post , thank you

Frank Savage

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Re: breech plug torque
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2013, 12:47:34 AM »
Iīm afraid not so nice-at least I should have wrote "Strenght and Flexibility" instead of Material Science... I edited the post.