Testing the 58 Hawken

[frontier gander]

I love it when just changing a LITTLE thing like patch thickness, changes things greatly for the better!

CVA Hawken, 32" 58cal 1:66 twist barrel.
120 grains Goex 2f
.018" pillow tick patches with olive oil lube.
50 yards.  The other 3 shots were me adjusting my sight down one click. The lowest shot I'm not sure what i did, but it went low. Not a big deal! I am a happy camper.


Also i noticed a very odd color in the fouling, Yellow! With a .020" patch and this load, I normally have grey fouling with red streaks. Don't really think it means anything, just  a new color, maybe from the yellowish olive oil that's left in the bore when i reload on a fouled bore.

Either way, I will be testing a new batch of lube and see if i can get the bore just a little bit slicker next time out.

[Bull Shannon]

It could be a reaction of the sulphur burning and differing amounts of humidity.  A week and a half ago my local club had it's monthly shooting match and it was unusually humid, with everyone noticing a great increase in the amount of fouling they were getting.  In the summer heat here in South Texas I notice the reddish brown streaks in the fouling increase.

I use the same patch thickness and lube most of the time as you do, always does fine but I am wanting to try a dry lube of Ballistol and water.  120 grains is a max charge in my .54 but I realize that yours is a .58, so is that close to max in your rifle?

[frontier gander]

Max powder charge for my shoulder 

I plan on hunting bear this September, so thats why I am working with such a heavy powder charge. Our bears can get real beefy.

[Bull Shannon]

If you are getting acceptable accuracy then stick with it.  As a matter of load development I'd back down to 80 grains, shoot groups of 3 then increase by 5 grains and shoot another three times on up to your current 120 grains.  That way you can compare your group size and then adjust your sights for point of impact.   Of course if you've got the POI where you want it then all you need is practice.

There, is that better?

[Dphariss]

If you are getting acceptable accuracy then stick with it, but optimum powder charge for a .58 works out to about 90 grains give or take a few grains.  This is according to what I've read by Dutch Schoultz.  1.5 X caliber size or .58 X 1.5=87 grains
As a matter of load development I'd back down to 80 grains, shoot groups of 3 then increase by 5 grains and shoot another three times on up to your current 120 grains.  That way you can compare your group size and then adjust your sights for point of impact.   Of course if you've got the POI where you want it then all you need is practice.

This formula has nothing to do with what the barrel might require for an accuracy load.

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Boy, that's the truth Dan.  I have, for example, two .50 cal rifles, and they couldn't be more different from each other.  One is happy with 65 Gr. FFg while the other is terrible unless it's fed 85 grains of the same powder.  Likewise, I have two .40's - one likes 44 gr. FFFg and the other won't group without 65 gr.
I'd be cautious of 'experts', especially those who sell their info, who offer cut and dried loading procedure.

[roundball]

"...optimum powder charge for a .58 works out to about 90 grains..."

[Bull Shannon]

I'd be cautious of 'experts', especially those who sell their info, who offer cut and dried loading procedure. [/quote]
This was not offered as a "cut and dried" loading procedure, just a generalization.  Neither did I claim to be an expert.  I did however offer advice on how to work up an accurate load as well as make the statement that if 120 grains is giving Frontier Gander acceptable accuracy in his rifle then to stick with it.

[frontier gander]

When I put the gun together my intention was 100 grains + with the heaviest load being best if it were accurate. I did shoot 90gr and it did great, but at 100 yards, it just opened up to much for my liking. My 120gr load at 100 yards with a .020 patch is typically under 2" should be even better now with the .018 patch but you never know until you try.

Im happy with the groups so far. Always room for a little experimenting with lubes and other patch material but thats the fun part with muzzleloading.

The only reason I am shooting a 120gr load is due to myself having a bear hunt this fall and so i want a very heavy load to smack that bear with.

[Bob Roller]

Either one of you guys should know by now that an expert is a man from outof town.

Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

Boy, that's the truth Dan.  I have, for example, two .50 cal rifles, and they couldn't be more different from each other.  One is happy with 65 Gr. FFg while the other is terrible unless it's fed 85 grains of the same powder.  Likewise, I have two .40's - one likes 44 gr. FFFg and the other won't group without 65 gr.
I'd be cautious of 'experts', especially those who sell their info, who offer cut and dried loading procedure.

Most of Schoultz's  info is very good for pure accuracy, its certainly worth reading if shooting string measure matches which allow less room for error than even scoring ring paper target matches.  But there is no formula for  the proper powder charge. They ALL produce errors as the bore size changes.
The 1.5 gr per caliber formula, for example,  gives a 1:1 powder:lead ratio for the 32 and a 1:3 ratio for the 58 and less than 1:4 for my 16 bore rifle. 
Most here likely know this but it bears mentioning.
We have to remember that target shooting is not hunting and there are different requirements if the load is to be optimized for one or the other. Hunting, where I live, requires a flat trajectory and accuracy that will allow placing the shot to kill the animal to the max distance the shooter is comfortable shooting. It also requires the ability to load without wiping the bore. In competition that requires maximum precision accuracy is more important than trajectory. So in some cases there may be trade offs. Usually its in the patch lube used rather than significant powder charge changes, however. Slick lubes may not shoot as well as a high friction lube that requires wiping. Few rifles will consistently shoot really well unless the bore is in the same condition from shot to shot. This is very difficult to do when hunting with a lube that provides an oil film to protect the bore. So we compromise. In hunting we only need "adequate" accuracy. If shooting a match and you lose the aggregate string  by 1" or even .1" on 10 shots? Then the accuracy is king.

Dan

[Daryl]

Good shooting Roundball. I would expect no less than near perfection from you with that load.

Gander, your grouping's great but I'd try a different lube/oil.  When I tested Olive Oil, I was less than pleased with it's lubrication and fouling softening properties. Even as a mix in black powder bullet lubes, it failed me. On the other hand, Neetsfoot oil and Track's Mink oil worked well on patches. I have not tried those in bullet lubes - yet.

In full agreement with Dan and Taylor. Every gun is unto itself in what it demands for accuracy - one must test to attain whatever goals are important to you. Some people are happy just to hit the paper 3 out of 5 times.  Thumb starting will give that accuracy and you don't even need rifling.

That many people who shoot ML's are quite content to pick an arbitrary powder charge, old T-shirts for patches - easy thumb starting, easy loading as long as the bore is wiped and dried every shot, it great. Then and as long as the gun goes off  - they're happy - they have no further demands.  I've finally come to the realization that these shooters outnumber those of us who strive for the best load for whatever type of shooting we are doing - and that's just fine.  

[frontier gander]

well i tried the new patch lube with a bit of beeswax in it and it reloaded much easier and i now saw those streaks of red in the fouling at the muzzle. That most likely has something to do with humidity but the reloading part was MUCH better than last time, i just lean into my short starter and it will go down. No having to pound on it which i am very grateful for  LOL.

[nosrettap1958]

Roundball owns an exceptional rifle built by TVM with a great Rice barrel, but besides all that, you have to be mighty proud to own that rifle Roundball, I know I would be.