gravers

[Kenny]

I have been trying to engrave with the gravers from the online stores. I s there someplace I  can get decent gravers without making them myself.

[necchi]

Did ya know most gravers need to be sharpened, even when they're brand new?

[Ed Wenger]

Kenny,

Welcome to the forum!  Unfortunately, what necchi said is true, plus, you're going to break tips, so you'll need to know how to sharpen them anyway. 

Do a search here, I believe there are some tutorials for sharpening gravers...

To me, having a correctly sharpened graver is 80% (at least) of the battle, whether you're engraving with a chaser, pushing, or use a power engraver.  I can't emphasize that enough.

I'd also check out Lindsay's engraving site.  They sell templates that take all the guess work out of sharpening an engraver.  The templates are pricey, no doubt about it, but for me are worth every penny.  Good luck!

   Ed

[J. Talbert]

First of all, are you using a square graver?  Some on line sites sell all sorts of gravers more suited to jewelry work.  A square graver is what you want for 90+% of longrifle work.
If you're new to engraving sharpening is definitely your first hurdle.  The options there are either personal, video or written instruction, followed by a lot of trial and error.
OR Lindsey.
As stated, Lindsey's system may seem pricey, but for my money, it's well worth it.

Good luck!
Jeff

[DFHicks]

Ditto on the Lindsey system.  It is worth every penny of the cost.  It gives you consistent sharpening which is critical for the beginner.
DF

[Kenny]

I have been using square graver mostly. yeah, I know all about the sharpening thing. my biggest problem is the ones I have are small and hard to hold. I think they may be for jewelery. I have watched the Wallace gusseler and jack brooks videos. they sure make it look easy,,  their tools look a lot different than what ive been able to find. Wallace makes his I guess.

[kutter]

A 'square' (I've always called it a V point) will do most everything you need as already mentioned.

The simplest ones to make up are using the square lathe tool bits in 3/32 or 1/8" square size.
You can buy them individually or in packets. Usually from tool supply co is cheaper but engravers supply may have the steel alloy you want.

They are usually 3" or more in length. Mount one in a suitable handle so it's comfortable to cut with.
The handle can be as important as anything in your ability to cut with the tool.

Tip it up on one corner and it's a 'square' graver,,the V point. 
Sharpen as usual, the face angle and the heal on each flat. It will cut a 90* groove line for you.
You can remove the excess on top for a better view while cutting. Even slim the sides down for a narrow tool, it still retains the 90* cut.

You don't need carbide tools,,they require special sharpening equipment anyway.
Just something in the cobalt tool steel will do fine for anything you will be cutting on a M/L.
Most have trade names like MoMax and the like.

A high quality HS tool steel graver made from a perfectly square lathe tool bit. I like the 3/32 size better than the 1/8", but either will quickly make a nice basic graver for you with minimum fuss.

[Kenny]

Thank you Kutter, I will definitely give that a try.

[kutter]

If you have trouble sharpening up the square graver, and it isn't easy to do by eye and just hand held,,you can use the same tool bit and make a 'flat' out of it.
Those are so much easier to sharpen as you are guided by the opposing flat to keep things straight. Plus you only have to sharpen the face angle and put a tiny heal on it..drag it backwards accross the stone or diamond plate and at the last motion lift the tool a few degrees for the heal to be put on.
How fancy is that..
Keep the sides parallel and sharp.

Then take that flat and use it as a square graver by  rolling it onto either of it's edges.
It cuts a V groove and you can flair the cut, but only in one direction depending on which of the two edges you choose to cut with.

I cut for many years with such a tool. It doesn't sound as though it would cut well, but it does. I was shown it by another engraver who had worked at International Silver Co.  I used it in steel engraving w/o problems.

You can spend an enormous amount of time as a tool sharpener trying to learn the engraving trade. Sometimes there are simpler tool shapes that let you begin cutting and get done what you want to get done w/o all the technical geometry and frustration.

[Kenny]

Kutter, thank you for all your help. I am a housewright, timber framer by trade so I know the value of having the right tool and "sharp" is critical. I`m glad I found this site
, the wealth of knowledge and generosity of the members is outstanding! thank you all
Ken

[Kevin Houlihan]

Kutter,
I have handles from Ngraver which take 3/32 square bits.  Where can I find 3/32 cobalt lathe bit blanks?  I've looked and can't seem to find any. 
Thanks,
Kevin

[Captchee]

  Steve Lindsey sells 3/32 cobalt blanks

[Acer Saccharum]

Lindsay, GRS both sell blanks. They are pricey, but the steel is extremely high quality. The high cobalt tools will cut fairly hard metals, and on brass and steel, the edges and points last forever.

1/8" square Lathe bits are cheap, readily available, and work fine for most stuff. MSC, Enco, Grizzly, etc carry lathe bits.

[Bob Roller]

I have a few 1/8" square high speed lathe tools but never remebered a 3/32".
You might look in magazines that cater to model makers.

Bob Roller

[Acer Saccharum]

the only 3/32 square bits I have found were supplied by GRS and Lindsay. Maybe they have them custom made.

I tried searching for 3/32 from my usual tool suppliers, but no luck.

T

[Captchee]

Stuller ,carries the Lindsey  M42 cobolt
http://www.stuller.com/products/36-2531/?groupId=110672

[Acer Saccharum]

In the UK, on Ebay, 3 pcs for $12.74:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Square-Ground-M2-HSS-rod-gravers-watchmaker-3-32x3-32x2-1-2-Tool-Bits-toolbits-/360515374956?pt=UK_Jewellery_Watches_WatchAccessories_SpareParts_SM&hash=item53f0640f6c

[T*O*F]

I tried searching for 3/32 from my usual tool suppliers, but no luck.

I got 3/32 square stock in W1 from McMaster.  Comes in 36" lengths.  You have to harden and temper it yourself.  Good enough for engraving brass and mild steel.

[kutter]

I've used a lot of N-Gravers cobalt and carbide engraving bits.

http://www.ngraver.com/cutters.htm


I see they're .085,,so they are actually a little smaller than 3/32 square which is fine with me. I don't like all the extra width at the point anyway. Using an 1/8" square bit, I just grind that extra width away.

The Cobalt HS steel will work for anything here. Unless you feel the need to cut through the skin of case hardened parts,,then they will generally fail after a few hits.
Engraving right through CC/H isn't considered the best quality work anyway and it's generally only found on cheap quickee work.

The carbide bits they offer cut Winchester 21's well,,one of the ultimate tests it seems. Some of those original mfg frames still resisted and had to be annealed a bit. Nasty things to work on w/a hammer and chisel, but they file, drill and mill just fine. Go figure.
The new production stuff is 8620 and not bad to cut at all.

The Lindsay proprietary carbide bits ,'Carbalt' I think they are stamped w/o going to look at them are very good. Not as brittle as the ones from Ngraver. You need either a diamond wheel sharpening set up or silicon carbide as you do for the above carbide.
Lindsays HSS gravers are excellent for general work. I've cut entire 25hr jobs with them and never resharpened.
Lindsays tool bits are a true 3/32" square I believe.

I don't fret over small stuff. I just lock one into the handle and cut.
My preference is for the smaller square tool,,but if not available, I've used the 1/8 bits too. You might like them better. Everyone is different.

At one time I used 1/8 round Stellite steel stock to make engraving bits. Lots of extra grinding and polishing to take them to shape from the round. But that's what we had,,that's what we used. They do make great under cut punches and still use a couple of them today 40+ years later. They're a bit shorter than they used to be.

[James Rogers]

I tried searching for 3/32 from my usual tool suppliers, but no luck.

I got 3/32 square stock in W1 from McMaster.  Comes in 36" lengths.  You have to harden and temper it yourself.  Good enough for engraving brass and mild steel.

Ditto. Ken Moors put me on to that a few years ago.

[KLMoors]

Yup, that W-1 stock works great. I learned about it on Lindsay's site. The nice thing about it is that it is annealed when you get it. So, you can just grind it down to whatever shape you want very quickly without worrying about ruining the temper.

I used to temper them in my oven, but I just use a propane torch now and it seems to work well enough for the soft stuff on these guns. It just takes a minute or so to harden and temper one.

I use the Lindsay templates too, and they really saved me from giving up on engraving. I use the 96 degree on most of the time.