Cracked Breech Plug

[E.vonAschwege]

Hey Folks,
    Well - I made the move out to the West coast - I'm currently living in the small coastal town of Wheeler, OR, in Tillamook county (near Manzanita, Cannon Beach).  While staying with friends here, I've got a small workshop setup so I can finish my pistol and get started on another Lehigh rifle.  Doing the final finishing on the pistol and wanted to remove the breech plug to polish the face.  I had my usual setup in the vice padded with brass shims, put the wrench on the plug, began to torque it and the bottom half of the plug cracked and sheered right off.  It broke where I filed a notch for the lock bolt, right up to flush with the breech of the barrel.  The plug is pretty well stuck in there right now - I still need to install a touch hole liner, which I can do without removing the plug.  I've got another breech plug laying around that I can install if I can get this one out (then of course would require reshaping, bending, and engraving again to match what's on there now).

Do you think it is necessary to remove and replace the plug?  It was installed correctly before, so except for not having as polished a breech face as it could be, I see no reason to remove it, but am asking for your more expert opinions.  Thanks in advance! 
-Eric

PS, it's a 7/8" breech, 9/16-18 threaded plug, and .45cal rifled barrel. 

[Long John]

Eric,

First of all, best wishes for what ever you might be undertaking in your new venue.  Oregon is a beautiful place!

I wouldn't mess with it.  That part of the breechplug  is only there to give your breechplug wrench something to bear against.  I would file the broken area flat, put a small wooden patch in the stock to support the adjacent wood and proceed with finishing the gun as if nothing were amiss.

Keep in touch with your old friends on the Right Coast.

Best Regards,

John Cholin (and Ollie)

[axelp]

Cannon Beach/Tillamook area is very pretty, We vacationed up the coast of Oregon a few years back and had a wonderful time. We were there in July though... It is neat to see all of the small gentleman dairy farms  surrounding Tillamook that provide milk to them.

K

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Hi Eric,

If it were mine, I'd likely remove it, have it welded up solid, and drill the hole for the lock nail rather than take away so much of the plug.  If you're going to brown or blue the barrel, you'll want it out anyway, or at least that's how I'd do it.  It isn't necessary to replace it.
And it's good to have you posting here again.

[David Rase]

Eric,
Now you have an excuse to stop by my shop for a visit on your way to or from Bellingham.  We can put the barrel in my lathe, drill out the plug, cleanup the threads and install a new breech plug and hoist a beer or two.
David

[Dogshirt]

Beer? Did someone mention BEER? We have a great brewery here in Ellensburg called Iron Horse Brewing.
I periodically do carpenter/ maintenance work for them and it pays both cash AND beer!

[Hungry Horse]

My chief concern is the obvious crystallization that is showing in the broken area. This plug has the look of cast iron, more than steel. Now I'm sure it is steel, but to crystalize like that sets off some alarms in my world. Has this plug been heated red hot at any time? Some steels will air cool, and get very hard, and brittle.

                   Hungry Horse

[David Rase]

Beer? Did someone mention BEER? We have a great brewery here in Ellensburg called Iron Horse Brewing.
I periodically do carpenter/ maintenance work for them and it pays both cash AND beer!

Dogshirt,
I will send you an e-mail sometime.  I own property and a home on Wilson Creek Road in Ellensburg.  As for the Iron Horse Brewery, My daughter turned me on to Irish Death, and I am not much of a dark beer drinker.
Dave

[E.vonAschwege]

My chief concern is the obvious crystallization that is showing in the broken area. This plug has the look of cast iron, more than steel. Now I'm sure it is steel, but to crystalize like that sets off some alarms in my world. Has this plug been heated red hot at any time? Some steels will air cool, and get very hard, and brittle.

                   Hungry Horse

I noticed that too Hungry Horse.  I haven't had the breech plug heated red hot, and it's the standard milled plug available from Track, Dixon's etc - very soft mild steel.  On close inspection the metal definitely bent at the hole before sheering. 

[J. Talbert]

I'm with Taylor.  Although getting it out without further damage may be tricky.

Good luck out there Eric.

Jeff

[volatpluvia]

Eric,
You could actually polish the face of the breechplug while it is seated in the barrel with the right set up.  I would think that the only reason to replace it would be if you are ashamed of anyone seeing it.  JMHO
volatpluvia

[Dave B]

Hey Erick, Welcome to way out west.  I live just out of Vancouver WA if you get  over this way you should drop in.  Some on e good with a wire welder could tack down a chunk of metal that would give enough leverage to get it out then just weld up the rest of the plug grind it back a dnll a new lock bolt hole. I am shure that when you try to take out the plug down the road it is going to twist off the other half unless steps are taken.

[little joe]

It appears that the plug is very brittle. Bad choice of medal I think.

[Acer Saccharum]

Grainy break does not look like 12L14, or 1018. I doubt it's a safety issue, but to remove it, you're going to have to go to Dave Rase's and do the obligatory beer hoisting.

I believe the plug will shear off before you can wrench it out.

I'd drill it out and put a new plug in. Because you will want it out to do the liner, polish the breechface, etc.

[kutter]

If it were mine, I'd replace it. That's just the way I am.
No it doesn't show, but I know it's there,,and it's my work.


To take some of the torque off of the tang in removing it, Hacksaw a slot down from the top on the tang itself as close to the bbl edge as you can w/o touching it.
That'll allow what ever crush fit torque those two surfaces have from the the fitting to relax.
What is left is what ever the face of the plug itself has against the bore.

You still have the tang itself to use as a wrench fitting to pull the thing out.

[Acer Saccharum]

To take some of the torque off of the tang in removing it, Hacksaw a slot down from the top on the tang itself as close to the bbl edge as you can w/o touching it.
That'll allow what ever crush fit torque those two surfaces have from the the fitting to relax.
What is left is what ever the face of the plug itself has against the bore.

Most excellent advice. If it doesn't come out, then go to Dave's.

[Jerry V Lape]

Whats wrong with you guys?  Dave made a very generous offer and it would not be very polite not to accept.  Further, what an opportunity to make a new friend.  And what else might you learn in the process?

[PPatch]

If it were mine, I'd replace it. That's just the way I am.
No it doesn't show, but I know it's there,,and it's my work.


To take some of the torque off of the tang in removing it, Hacksaw a slot down from the top on the tang itself as close to the bbl edge as you can w/o touching it.
That'll allow what ever crush fit torque those two surfaces have from the the fitting to relax.
What is left is what ever the face of the plug itself has against the bore.

You still have the tang itself to use as a wrench fitting to pull the thing out.

I'm going to pinch Kutter's sage advice off the site here and tuck it into the little bag labeled "Tricks of the Trade." Good one Kutter and it is so logical it will likely work like a charm.

dp

[Acer Saccharum]

Whats wrong with you guys?  Dave made a very generous offer and it would not be very polite not to accept.  Further, what an opportunity to make a new friend.  And what else might you learn in the process?

Jerry, on the surface, Dave's offer seems very generous. This is only if you don't know Dave.

Once Dave threw his grass skirt in the back of my truck after a Dixon's Fair, and then tried to deny it wasn't his.

Eric already knows Dave, and is concerned that Dave will enslave him at the inletting machine, or worse, making entire guns for him! All for a couple of beers. Not a good deal.

On the left, Dave Rase. On the right, an evil compatriot, Brian Dancey.

[Vomitus]

  Dave's a very talented fellow! I watched him do the "rope" dance between a couple tents once. I was concerned  when he fell and slapped the ground like a weiner...but he never lost a molecule of his beverage! I was amazed and got instant respect for his dancing talent. I hear he's ok with guns too,lol!

[JCKelly]

With respect, as a Pain-in-the-Ass Metallurgist I'd say that plug sheared off pretty much like 12L14.
Or, one might disrespectfully say, like a hard cheese or inexpensive small hardware store bolt.

Welding this resulfurized rephosphorized leaded steel would be quite a challenge. $#*!, do not try to weld it.

All steel - all metal - is made up of many small crystals. They show up nicely under a microscope at, say, 100X. When the metal is overheated the crystals grow big enough that one can see them with the naked eyeball. then people call it "crystallized" Big crystals = big grains = brittle steel

Oh, well.

[E.vonAschwege]

I'm not a metallurgist, but from the "feel" of my files and gravers, it works the same way that 12L14 barrel steel works.  I think the nail in the coffin for this plug is that it's not something I'm comfortable putting my name onto.  It's probably fine safety wise, and is hiding 90% of the time within the stock, but is a glaring and obvious fault when the barrel is out.  Now to add another 5 hours or so to my tally on this pistol...

Jerry, I'm definitely taking Dave up on his offer, though I may try to remove the plug with a generous amount of penetrating oil and heat prior to heading to Bremerton.  I'll bring the beer and a couple barrels and stocks to inlet for a good visit instead  .   Dave B, I've got friends in Portland and will definitely let you know the next time I'm driving through Vancouver, would love to drop by! 

Kutter - great tip about relieving the pressure from the barrel with that cut! 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on the plug - decision has been made to remove and replace it (one way or another).  Below is a sneak peek of the pistol - still need a couple coats of glaze/finish before calling the rest done.  Style-wise it's a bit of a mix between Dutch and French.  Finished photos in another week or two. 
Best,
-Eric

[David Rase]

  Dave's a very talented fellow! I watched him do the "rope" dance between a couple tents once. I was concerned  when he fell and slapped the ground like a weiner...but he never lost a molecule of his beverage! I was amazed and got instant respect for his dancing talent. I hear he's ok with guns too,lol!

Roy,
You guys definately had your camp burglar proof.  That was quite the entrance I made upon my initial meet and greet with you Canadian's.  The embarrassing part was that the night was young and I was not even intoxicated.  You guys were probably thinking "Light weight American's".  I hope to camp with you guys again.  It was one of the best Rondy's I've been to, and you guys made it fun.
David   

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Serious thread theft...BC Rendezvous 2013 - August 23rd to Sept. 2nd.  Be there, and leave an impression!

[whitebear]

I have never tried it!  Haven't needed to but in Recreating The American Longrifle there is a chapter on breech plugs and the idea of cutting off the existing tang from a breech plug page 49 and silver soldering on another is discussed.  Could you fit a new breech plug cut the tang off the original one and solder it to the new plug there by saving having to file fit a new tang to the inletting on the stock.

The only problem that I foresee is the gap left where the saw cuts down between breach plug and barrel but that could be filled.