Old methods and tools question?

[Jerry V Lape]

We have seen specialized antique tools for just about every operation in building a longrifle except for the ramrod pipes.  Having made only a few pipes by hand myself, I find it surprising those who search out the old tools haven't found some specialize tools used to form pipes including the ringed ends and flats. I realize labor was relatively cheap then, but still spending at least an hour per pipe would seem excessive.  Further, there are so many old pipes which appear to be of the exact same form and dimension that it seems some uniform method beyond just file work was involved.   The time required to sit and file these pieces seems to dictate some enterprising gun builder would have devised a quicker method to press them out of the thin sheet metal. 

[draken]

I remember a demonstration, or a book or magazine article illustrating the procedure you're thinking of, but working with tin.  As i recall, it involved a flat steel plate with a   simple groove at one end of it. There was a matching plate with a ridge that fit into that groove.  There was more to it, but it had to be at least sixty years ago and being only vaguely interested in it at the time and that's all I remember.  
  
Right now I'd be happy if I could remember where I put the blades for my jewler's saw.

[Dave B]

Are you talking about some thing like this?



The swadge and mandrel I made to try to improve the look of the rod pipes with regards to the wedding bands. I settled for a contour punch and the mandrel you see here.
Here is an original trade pistol entry pipe that shows evidence of a forming tool having been used to raise the wedding band

.

[Acer Saccharum]

I'm on board with Dave B, having made my own pipes for all me recent work. Most original guns I have seen used very thin material, and it's the ribbing that gives great stiffness to the pipe. Without these ribs, the pipe would be easily crushed. Plus, the ribs add a decorative touch.

I have not seen any original tools to form these. I imagine that they were simple tools as Dave B made above. After a century of sitting around, they'd be tossed out with all the other unidentifiable bits of metal.

[rich pierce]

I think it's Mike Lea who is the expert on this and makes great ribbed very thin pipes for trade guns.  I like the tools you showed, Dave, but haven't figured out what to do with the nickel.

[Hungry Horse]

 Several years ago I bought a bunch of closeout stock from TOTW. among the items in the grab bag, was a bunch of flat pieces of forty thousandths  brass, with ribbing rolled into them, on what appeared to be a small pressure roller. They were stock to make trader gun pipes. I decided, that if you could make trade gun pipes on a small pressure roller, you could make rifle pipes the same way. I made a roller from angle iron, and shafting, using grade eight flat washers to form the ribs. After discovering that some small teeth had to be cut into the roller in the bottom of the grooves to give it enough traction to roll the brass through, it worked just fine. I always examined old rifles, for evidence of the use of such a tool, and having not found one that shows the fine tooth pattern in the recesses of the ribs. I decided I liked the hand made look of individually made pipes better. I sold the roller to a fellow that started making ribbed cap boxes with it, and eventually wore it out.

                   Hungry Horse

                     

[James Rogers]

Mike Lea's plates form the rings on the tab material as well. I have not seen evidence of that on period work to date. I had toyed with the idea of using modified rollers in my rolling mill but did not find a single original example to suggest they were done that way. IIRC Jack Brooks has a set of plates for trade pipes as well. Dont know if his gets the tab portions or not.  One can use a slightly thicker material if not making trading guns. Kit ravenshear tacked small rods to a male plate and made mating indentations in the female. For a quick make, one can use an aluminium plate and cut the female indentations with a table saw.

[davec2]

I made these pipes back in high school 40 years ago from thin brass.  I made the tube out of thin sheet and then poured it full of lead.  The flats and rings were quickly hammered into place with small punches and then the lead was melted out.  You can use Cerrosafe or Cerrobend alloy also and you only need boiling water to melt it back out.  Easy.  (You can also use pitch like the silversmiths used for a lot of hollow work, but its much more difficult to melt out and clean up.)  The rear pipe was made the same way, but with the skirt silver soldered on after the pipe was formed.  You don't need internal mandrels or very special tools.

[RAT]

In the book "Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company 1670-1970" by S. James Gooding, one photo shows some pipes with what appears to be ribbing impressed into the tab. I'm guessing a flat piece of brass was placed between a top and bottom forming die and then the die was struck to impress the ribbing into the thin brass plate. The flat ribbed brass was then formed round similar to how we do it today. 

[Dogshirt]

Not to get away from HOW this was done, but I have several old cymbals laying around. Is this a good alloy
for making things like pipes and such?

[Acer Saccharum]

You won't know if the cymbals are suitable unless you cut them up and anneal a piece. Some alloys work great, and others workharden immediately. Some alloys that look like brass are actually a bronze, and don't anneal at all. You won't know until you try.

[Jerry V Lape]

I think you will find cymbols are more bronze bell material than brass and pretty thick for use in pipes too. 

[Dave B]

Here is the final punch I ended up using to make my wedding bands.

[SuperCracker]

Dave
I notice in the top picture your mandrel rod has octagonal flats filed in. Were you also hammering out a small flat before filing/scraping the flat in?

[Dave B]

That is correct. I learn that trick from Dave Rase when he presented on making rod pipes at the old Carriage house in Corvalis OR.  He was selling the tools to make your own pipes and I got a set. I use them a lot.

[SuperCracker]

Thanks. I had been wondering how people were able to file flats in such thin material without breaking through. I figured they were doing something like that but I had not seen it done.

[JCKelly]

davec2 thank you for the tip. I don't expect to make more than a couple more thimbles, at most, in my remaining career. Like making gun stuff by hand, disinterested in tooling. Think lead sounds easiest to use, at least in terms of acquiring more Stuff in my shop.

Nice to see a simple, tool-less way of doing things.