A 'key' question

[Sean]

Could anyone here please give me their thoughts on when captured keys came into use on American guns as well as how common they became and whether or not headless keys were regularly captured?

Thank you kindly,

Sean

[wmrike]

If it is a set of steel barrels, my first call would be to Giacomo Sports in New York (315-336-1356).  These are ex-Perazzi people who specialize in Perazzis and  other high end guns, and are renowned for fast, compotent service.  I have heard of guys getting a barrel set back within the week if needed, but in no case will you be without for as much as a month.  If the tubes are damascus, Kirk Merrington in Texas (830-367-2937) seems to be the odds-on favorite at least for authentic refinishing, and he could probably get you started in the right place for getting the rib relayed.  Those are just two quick suggestions.  I have no doubt there are others out there that do excellent work also.

Don't let people talk you into thinking you can do it yourself by rubbing some sandpaper under the rib and tickling it with a soldering gun or, worse, sticking some epoxy down there.

[famouseagle]

You may want to move that to the other question.

[Dave B]

The only guns that I have seen with captured wedges were around the early 1800's but I don't think they became common till the 30's and 40's. They were typically half stocked. They were using capture wedges on European pieces much earlier. I have a 1750's french fowler that had captured wedges holding the barrel in place.
most of the high end English fowlers had them at the end of the 1700's. Hawken of course copied the English hunting rifles in my opinion by adding and extra tennon and wedge from the common single wedge used most widely by the Brit's. I think they  were using captured wedges on Hawkens by the end of the 1830's. If I am off on this others will set us straight.

[famouseagle]

A lot of the Bucks County guns I have seen are fastened with wedges.  The Verner and Shuler rifles in RCA show wedges.  Here's a detail from a signed and dated (1800) Shuler.

[Curt J]

By "captured keys" you are referring to keys that do not come out, usually hidden under an inlay on both ends. The barrel is removed by removing the tang screws and sliding it ahead. The barrel has hooks, rather than regulat tenons, am I correct? I have owned several Midwestern rifles that were made this way, both halfstocks and fullstocks. One fullstock comes to mind, made by Eaton Barns, in Southern Indiana, during the 1840's . The ones I have owned or seen, seem to date from the 1840's and 1850's.

[JTR]

Or 'Captured Keys' meaning keys that are slotted partway down the center, and held from falling completely out of the stock by a small nail or keeper pounded into the stock inside the barrel channel?

Dickert and Henry Spitzer used these on at least some rifles, 1790 / 1800.

John

[T*O*F]

One fullstock comes to mind, made by Eaton Barns, in Southern Indiana, during the 1840's

Curt,
Interesting!!  The T. Barns gun I recently sold had the same setup.  However, it was a halfstock and had the key hidden inside of a poured pewter nosecap.  It took me a bit of thinking before I was able to remove the barrel.  Perhaps that is a feature of the Barns family of builders.  I would also note that, even though the tang was curved on the top, it was not bent.  The bottom was filed straight, which allowed the barrel to be slid forward and then up to remove it.

[Curt J]

"T. BARNS" is Turner Barns. He was Eaton Barns' younger brother and probably learned the trade from him. No doubt this method was fairly common with the Barns family. Turner Barns worked in Greensburg, Indiana, not far from Friendship.

[Sean]

Or 'Captured Keys' meaning keys that are slotted partway down the center, and held from falling completely out of the stock by a small nail or keeper pounded into the stock inside the barrel channel?

Dickert and Henry Spitzer used these on at least some rifles, 1790 / 1800.

John

This is what I meant by 'captured keys'.  I appreciate all the responses on this rather small detail.  Any thoughts on whether captured keys were generally headed or headless?  I've seen many 1790-1840 guns with headless keys.  It seems to me that builders would generally use keys with heads if they were going to capture them in an effort to reduce the chance that someone would try to knock them out in the wrong direction.  I've seen captured keys on a Deringer rifle that is probably circa war of 1812.  He used headed keys on it.

Sean

[Curt J]

Okay, concerning this definition of "captured keys", I have a number of rifles and shotguns, all by American makers, that have captured keys. Every one of them has a head on the key. I don't think it is so much a matter of when these came into use, as it is of who was using them. All of them are on guns that are of superior quality.

[Sean]

Thanks Curt.  That is pretty much my limited experience, too.  I don't think I've seen gun with headless keys that were captured.  But most of the captured keys I've seen were not on high end rifles, but on common trade rifles built for the tribes.

Sean