Distance from breech to ramrod entry hole???

[Brian Jordan]

I am at the stage of my build were I need rough out the stock for my ramrod groove, and to locate the ramrod hole entry. If I remember correctly the books I have seem to vary between 10"-14" from the breech. I want to be able to carry the rifle well balanced at this point. The barrel is a 13/16" straight x 44" long .40 cal.

My question is do you guys start with the hole a little forward, and shorten it up once you have more material removed from the entire stock when the rifle is closer to final weight?

So what is the distance most of you use, and from were do you locate this point from?

Thanks
Brian

[Long John]

For me, it depends.

I measure the distance from the front trigger to the curve of the butt plate - the LOP,  I then measure from the front trigger forward that same distance and that's where I put the ramrod entry.





I'm not professional - just a hobby builder and no one has ever paid me for agun that I built.  That's how I do it and, just maybe, that why no one has ever paid me for a gun I built.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Brian Jordan]

Long John that seems like a very simple system to lay them out. To me (Far from a professional) the symmetry looks correct.

How well do the rifles you pictured balance in the hand?

[pushboater]

John, I'm just a hobby builder myself, and the only guns I've sold are the ones that someone made me an offer on that I couldn't refuse, but your system of measurement sure makes for a nice looking, symmetrical rifle that looks well proportioned. It just looks right.  In my opinion Brian, rear sight placement has more to do with a comfortable carry than the length of the forearm.  In the finishing stages when you're ready to dovetail in the rear sight simply hold the rifle at it's balance point and put the rear sight either in front of or behind the balance point enough so that it's not gouging you in your hand when you're carrying it.  I only made that mistake once.  I'll make a small cardboard cutout of a rear sight and tape it to the barrel in various spots until I find the best spot to place it.  But, like John said, I'm no professional and that's simply my opinion.  Good Luck with your build.  I'll be looking forward to the finished photo's!

Capt. David

[Kermit]

Ratios were used a lot in furniture making in that period. I'm guessing some of the builders can tell us if that's true in gun architecture as well. Could it have been common to establish the entry as a portion of barrel length, say, 2/5 or 3/7 or...?

[Brian Jordan]

I agree Kermit. I'm sure the golden mean was, or still should be an important part of the rifle design.

[smart dog]

Hi Brian,
There certainly is no hard and fast rule.  You might adopt John's idea but add a little extra forearm length initially.  Then drill your ramrod hole and start shaping the forestock.  There is no reason to rush selection of where the rear ramrod thimble goes.  As you shape the forestock, you can whittle back the location of the forearm step until it looks right to your eyes.  Keep in mind you do have to consider where the thimble lug ends up relative to the barrel lugs but you have a lot of room for adjustment.  I tend to like a shorter forearm because it makes the gun look slimmer overall. Golden mean proportions are a very general notion and I am no slave to them.  In my experience, my subjective eye for aesthetics is superior to any formula.

dave

[rich pierce]

Shorter or longer barrel lengths can influence the forearm length as well.  Some original Germanic short rifles have extremely short forearms.

[Acer Saccharum]

On a Tom Curran original, I put it where I think it will look good.

[Mark Elliott]

The position of the rear entry relative to the breech is proportional to the length of the barrel, or at least, that is the way I determine the position.    I layout the entire gun on the stock blank with the actual parts before I cut it and the rear entry is one of the things I mark.   I start by positioning it 1/3 the length of the barrel from the breech.    Then I look at the position of the barrel tennons and thimbles.   I try to position those roughly equidistant from each other and out of the way of the barrel tennons.    The postion of the barrel tennons take precedence.    You don't want a tennon at the waist of the barrel and the position of the first tennon depends on the region and period the rifle will represent.    Once,  you have all that worked out,  I make sure that the upper/lower forearm transition is at least a hands width from where the rear sight will go.   I do not consider balance as I don't think that was ever considered by any of the original builders.   Most original guns, at least the ones I build were extremely muzzle heavy, intended to be shot from a rest, and carried on a horse.   That said,  doing all the above and using a swamped barrel, the balance point is generally within a hand width of the transition.   Oh, and one last thing,   I step back and ask myself if it looks right.   If not,  I move it.   In the final analysis,  I go with looks right over a lot of the other factors.

I hope all that is clear, but I suspect not.   I agonized over this stuff for years before getting comfortable with the above procedure.

Mark

[Acer Saccharum]

Here's an example of what I thought 'looked right' at the time. I placed the thimble where I thought it should go, based on having three pipes and a short barrel.

But when I made the cut, I thought, OMG! What have I done? But it finished up OK, and it works. Balance point is right on the thimble skirt. Coulda been a little farther out, but once the wood is cut, it's gone.

[Kermit]

I rather kinda sorta hesitate to even contemplate the "Golden Mean" hereabouts. There's pretty good evidence the whole GM thing is a Victorian invention. Ratio and proportion, however, is not.

When Jim Tolpin first showed me one of his sectors and explained it, I went directly to my shop and made one. I now have three of differing lengths, but all are stepped off in 13 equal divisions. Here are a couple if things to read/viiew to get the idea.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/jim-tolpin’s-‘secret-of-the-sector’

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/this-one-goes-to-13

A simple measurement tool that uses mathematics without arithmetic. BTW, 13 divisions because 8:13 is insanely close to pi and the golden section.

[Long John]

Brian,

To answer your question on balance - both of those rifles balance just aft of the rear sight.  Both are blessed with a swamped barrel which shifts the balance point aft, towards the butt some.  If you are using a straight, unswamped barrel the balance point will move forward and that would counsel for a longer trigger guard to ramrod entry length to ensure that you have a comfortable carrying rifle (I'm a hunter).

Like I said, I'm an amateur at this and my opinions are often wrong.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[gunmaker]

Somewhere a while back I saw an article on this.  It said a formula exists from the Berlin gunmakers sch. 1700's.  Divide the bbl. length by 8, then that answer mult. by 3 to give fore arm length.  So 44" div by 8 =X, then X  times 3 = length.    So fore arm is 3/8 of bbl. OAL......Tom

[Acer Saccharum]

Somewhere a while back I saw an article on this.  It said a formula exists from the Berlin gunmakers sch. 1700's.  Divide the bbl. length by 8, then that answer mult. by 3 to give fore arm length.  So 44" div by 8 =X, then X  times 3 = length.    So fore arm is 3/8 of bbl. OAL......Tom

Suppose you use the formula, and it just doesn't look right?

[Mark Elliott]

Guess what,   3/8 gives you the small part of the Golden Mean ratio.          

Proof:

Fibernacci Sequence = 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21....      
The Golden Mean = 2/3, 3/5, 5/8, 8/13......   This is the big part of the ratio.  
The small part of the ratio is : 1/3, 2/5, 3/8, 5/13.......  

Remember  THIS IS JUST A STARTING POINT!!!!!!!!

[heinz]

Acer, the formula I learned from old time metal workers and wood worker was the 3/4/5 triangle. The 3/4/5 is a right triangle whose sides have those whole number ratios.   Any of those ratios will look good or ratios of the sums of those numbers .  I would note that 3/8  is 3/ 3+5.  I also learned "If it looks fair, it is fair" and the converse.  So if it don't look quite right, adjust.  You will probably come up with 3/9  or 3/7 depending largely on the butt and forearm thickness.  But, if it looks fair it is fair.

[Long John]

When I build a rifle I have a set of priorities and design decisions flow from those priorities.

First a rifle has to shoot!  If it won't hit its a failure in my book.  Second it has to carrry well.  If it handles like a sewer pipe or a landscaping tie then it is, again, a failure in my book.  Third, it has to have visually pleasing appearance.   If its ugly some one else can have it.  Life is too short to put up with an ugly rifle. Some folks think this last attribute can be reduced to a numerical formula.  I don't.  I never calculate ratios of measurements other than what I mentioned in my first post.

Some might think that my method doesn't work.  That's you choice.  I can tell you that both of the rifles I posted above carry like a dream.  The top one is a 54 caliber rifle with a 47 inch barrel.  When you are moving through the woods it just seems to float by your side and when you throw it up for the shot it is rock steady and whispers "we're gonna hit, pal".  And we do!  In my book that makes it a successful rifle.  And while I have never been paid for a rifle I have refused to sell both of those rifles a number of times.

That's my take on the matter.  I reserve the right to be wrong.  I love Acer's little gun and it is a wildly successful rifle in my book.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Acer Saccharum]

Heinz, as I use it, the 3, 4, 5 formula simply forms a right angle.

Use a tape measure to see if the wall frame is square. make marks 3 ft up one wall, by 5 ft along the plate. When you get 5 ft between those marks, your wall is square, and nail the angle bracing to hold it square.

I don't know how to apply that to a long rifle. 

[gunmaker]

Well Acer, if it don't look right--- I check my artistic license & do what I like....usually do it anyway,  and lean towards the short side on fore arms.  One more thing, that short rifle is excellent .      ....Tom

[Acer Saccharum]

Thanks for the kind words on the short rifle.  My first instinct was to cut the thimble in where it is. Then I cut it, and my reaction was OMG, what have I done? But my instincts were good, at least this time.


So my question is: how much do you trust your instincts, and how often do you second guess yourself into torpidity, paralysed by doubt and indecision?


I think confidence builds on success, and generosity toward yourself builds as you make mistakes. There is no way through this quagmire without getting wet.

[Brian Jordan]

So my question is: how much do you trust your instincts, and how often do you second guess yourself into torpidity, paralysed by doubt and indecision?

Man do I know what you are talking about!

This is my first build and I am probably over thinking things more than I need to in some cases

[gunmaker]

I trust my instincts a lot more since I started drawing a full scale pattern with photo copies of the components taped on it.  Then I sit in a chair 10-15 feet away and just stare at it, trying to pick up whats NOT right, especially the forearm length. Personally I like a shorter forearm, makes the BBL. seem longer if I slim it as much as possible.  Course I've been at this since 1978 and am a master at everything.....Back to reality  ---after 35 yr. I feel I may be up to the 3rd grade in rifle school. The shop is a quagmire, but the best place on earth.     ....Tom

[okieboy]

 I may be in the minority on this, but I think that the length of the forearm is no more related to the length of the barrel than is the the length of pull. They both serve functional purposes related to the size of the shooter and the length of the shooter's arm, as the fore arm is a place to support the gun with one's hand. Since I only build for myself, I use 12" from the back end of the barrel to the entry of the ramrod into the wood without regard to the length of barrel. I always have a good spot for my supporting hand and I don't want to drill any more than 12" anyway. I must say that I've never used a barrel shorter than 36" and more usually 40" or more.