loads

[Leon]

I'm about to finally finish a rifle kit that I bought from TOW a year ago. I have a C weight Rice .58 cal. thats 42 inches long. I am curious as to the powder charges, I plan to use this rifle for deer hunting and I realize that hot charges are not necessary for such game but I intend to get very familiar with this rifle when I develop loads for it. How strong is a swamped barrel like this one and does anyone know what size tends to be best for rice barrels in this cal.? I have 150 .570 on hand but I notice that .575 and .562 are also available. Leon 

[Dphariss]

Depends on the rifle.
I used to shoot 120 gr of FFFG in a 58 years ago.
I would start with 90-100 of your chosen ganulation and go up from there.
It will not shoot very flat with much less than 100.

Dan

[Leon]

Thank you for the response, I've read plenty in the past about people loading large amounts of powder in .58s but that was in straight barrels. Figured on starting out with 80 grs. and working up. maybe I'll start a little higher. Anyways I have to finish it first. Leon 

[Frank]

If you are just punching holes in paper, I would start around 60 grains of powder. My 62 caliber rifle does fine out to 100 yards on targets with 60 grains. Not sure about a hunting load for a 58, but 62 caliber smoothbores drop a whitetail deer in its tracks at 50 yards with 70 grains of 3F.

[frontier gander]

im deciding on what size ball to shoot out of my 58 myself. Today i fired 2 shots @ 100 yards using a .531 round ball and 100gr pyrodex. 3" group.  I use Two .020 patches.

.562 sounds good to me but then again i like the idea of the 280gr .570 round ball.

[roundball]

As one other reference for you, I have a GM .58cal Flint barrel...extremely accurate with 3 powder charges and two ball sizes that I've tried:

80/90/100grns Goex 2F
Oxyoke prelubed wad (with 100grn deer load)
.018" bore butter pillow ticking
Hornady .570"

(Also bought several boxes of Remington .570" 'Gold" colored balls at a good price from an auction...turned out they actually miced .575"-.577"...heck of a palm smack to get them started but also extremely accurate.

[Daryl]

Leon - I tend to agree with Dan and his recommendations for loads.  As to shooting a single 3" group with an undersize ball, well, stranger things do happen.

 I've had a number of .58's in the past and not one of them would shoot less than 80gr. 2F - and that one had a 48" twist.  The slower twist barrels I had were 66" and 72".  None of these gave 'best' accuracy at 100 yards or farther with less than 120gr. and 140gr. was better yet.

Soft charges will kill deer - being able to hit the deer in the right spot with an arcing ball due to a light charge is the problem. Feed the large bores as they should be.  As to shooting accurately with a 60 to 80gr. charge, my .45 uses 70gr. 3F and 80gr. 2F for it's accuracy loads.  It will not shoot accurately with less powder.  Starting at 80gr. is a bit light, but it's your rifle. To me, for a hunting rifle, I want the best accuracy I can get. As I noted above, that takes powder and a tight combination.  For expample, there are a few .54's and .58's being used in round ball competition.  They do not use squib loads and they are only shooting paper. They are after the best accuracy - they all use over 100gr. of powder and they all use oversize balls, that is, balls larger than the bore. This is for target rifles. We use smaller balls to make them easier loading as we don't have false muzzles and guide ball starters.  BUT - the closer we can come to what they shoot, the more accurate will be our shooting.  Hence, my use of .575" balls. These are .005" smaller than the bore, and much smaller than the deep grooves in a Rice barrel.  With such deep grooves, you need a thick patch that holds a lot of lube to soften the fouling.  I suggest at least 8 pound Denim - about .020". I use 10 pound myself for a ball .005" smaller than the bore as well as a ball only .003" smaller as in my .40 barrel.  if you have trouble loading .020" patches with a .575" ball, your crown is too sharp.  Taylor is using a .495" ball and a .023" or .024" heavy cotton patch in his Rice .50.  We've also had no difficulty loading a .508" ball with a .019" drill cloth patch in his rifle. The crown says it all.

It all depends on what you call acceptable accuracy.  I always used .575" balls in my .58's. I did not find them hard to load with the .020" denim patches I used, either with spit for target shooting nor mink oil or bear oil/grease for hunting.  I always crown the muzzle to a nice radiused, smooth rounded crown. This is especially important. No barrel maker leaves an appropriate crown on the barrel.  The smoothly radiused crown makes it easy to seat the ball in the muzzle. Simply use 320 grit emery cloth, with a bit of WD40 or other oil and your thumb.  Rotate your thumb pressing down hard, back and forth, turning the barrel 90 degrees periodically and you'll end up with a perfect crown.  I run a strip of patch material down the bore before doing this, then pull that out when finished. It pulls all the emery grit back out with it.  A bit of WD40 on the cloth helps the stuff stick to the cloth.  

Rice barrels are very easy loading.  As to strength - don't worry - just NEVER shot start it then fire it with the ball out 'there'. This is bad news with any barrel, worse with a swamped barrel.

[Dphariss]

I tend to shoot a stiff load at everything.
Shooting a low velocity load at a small target requires figuring out were the ball will be at a given distance. Higher velocity loads make this much simpler.
If you sight the rifle dead on at 100 then shoot it at 25-50 and 75 you will see what I mean.
A load in the 1700-1800 fps range will keep the ball within 2-3 inches of line of sight to 110 yards or so.
For hunting this is very important since the ranges are never known unless you have a range finder.
With a HV load in a 50-58 caliber rifle you do not worry about where to hold on a 6" steel plate to 110-120 yards. Center hold will hit it. If you shoot 60 grains you will be having to hold high or low on some targets.
For hunting a 50 caliber or larger rifle should be sighted at 110-120 yards for best trajectory. With 90 gr of FFFG swiss my 54 will stay on a deer to 130 yards with a center hold. Used to use 100 gr of GOEX.
Shooting light loads in a hunting rifle is silly. I consider all shooting to be practice for hunting. Thus shooting matches with light loads is actually counter productive since the trajectory is changed.
I would also point out that my 54 flint is really useless with light loads so I don't bother. Small targets, 2-3", are safe using 50-60 grains of powder even at 25-30 yards.

Dan

[voyageur1688]

  Not sure what load to use so g with what the others recommend to you. But 1 thing I do know about swamped barrels is that you should only use round balls in them. Do not use maxi balls or sabots in them. This can cause excess pressure and can damage the barrel, or worse---you.  Also make sure the ball is fully seated so it does not get to much pressure from that either.
Jim Chambers recommends this as well on his guns and with his reputation and products I would trust his opinion on it.
 Todd

[Leon]

I've been down the basement working on my rifle since my last post. I'm quite surprised and very pleased with all the responses. Thank you all very much. I guess I'll start out with 100 grs. and work my way up from there. My only experience so far is with a .50 cal. GPR. I'm only interested in patched round ball and eventually casting my own. I'm going on 56 but I'm starting to feel like a kid again. I can't wait to finish this rifle and shoot it. Leon

[Gene Carrell]

You'll still feel like a kid when fingering a new rifle at age 63.

[Mike R]

Every rifle is different--and my old .58 was a Hawken style custom I made myself with a heavy Green River barrel. In it 100 gr ffg was a minimum load for decent accuracy and trajectory. I used a .565 ball and thick patch. Stupidly I traded it off--but I did get a nice K. Casteel longrifle in return.

[Roger Fisher]

You'll still feel like a kid when fingering a new rifle at age 63.

And at 77

[Daryl]

Roger, you and Don Getz are anomalies - HA!  Just kidding. More power to you.

 I'm a very young 58 and get tickled every time I build or come into possession of a 'new-to-me' rifle or pelter.  Just goes with the territory.

 I lament selling my .58 Hawken - with that curved butt was not very pleasant to shoot - much rather shoot my .458.  Perhaps all the work & testing I did with it and the 'altered' Minnie's had something to do with that too. 140gr. and a 500gr. to 580gr. almost solid based Minnie's used to whack pretty good. It had a GRRW barrel on it and demanded to be fed large charges to shoot well.  140gr. was the accuracy load with RB as well.  That seemed to be the load I always had in her when moose hunting and walked into a flock of grouse - low hits were rather interesting - suspect they were low - bits and pieces all over. Shoot for the head, the head, stupid.

I work up a load that is the most accurate for the rifle - then use that load at all ranges. What shoots best at 50 to 100 yards, also shoots tiny bug holes at 25 yards. Sure, a weak close range 'target-type' load sometimes shoots well close in - afterall a good load in a smoothbore will cut a small hole for 5 shots at 25 yards, so a rifle should as well.  The problem becomes that you cannot test loads for accuracy at 25 yards, stopping when you find one that cuts shoots an inch, then expect that load to shoot well at longer ranges, unless that load is a healthy one.

It takes powder to shoot well at long range.  I know guys who can shoot to the capability of the rifle, Taylor is one, and can hit steel 'trail' targets every time - out to 75 yards, even more, with a light load in his .60 Jaeger or .50 Virginia.  But - put it on paper and it's not so hot - he's able to hit because his offhand groups match the best the rifle will do off the bench and the ten ring on a big steel plate is large.  He's a tremendous offhand shot - says he's poor off the bench. It's because his loads are not the best loads for the rifle, just a load he decided to use.  Off the bench or prone off a chunk, it's disheartening to say the least.

  Fringe hits score on a steel target, but - on a deer or moose, that fringe hit could run to the big bone of the leg, deflect and wound, not kill, or behind the diaphragm - same bad result.  A more accurate load will put the ball where the sights indicate - in the 'lights'.  With 120gr. to 140gr., recoil in a light rifle rifle would not be pleasant, but it will be very accurate with it. Afterall, it's a hunting rifle and should be loaded like one.

[northmn]

I had a 58 that liked two loads.  One was 70 grains of 3f and then it had to be fed 110 to shoot OK.  Why I do not know.  Another 58 I had never really shot well, but I only had a 575 mold and think it may have liked another ball size.  Probably will try 570's in my new one when I get it built.  (It was -34 last night and that kind of spoils my desire to work out in my shop)  The one that never shot well really would have been plenty good for a hunting rifle, it just did not give the kind of tight groups I liked for targets.  Accuracy is relative.  Some like to be able to hit field mice at 100 yards others like to be able to keep the shots inside of a deer, elk or whatever vitals.  I would start at 80 grains of 2f before loading up to the heavier charges.  The advantage of heavier charges is one mostly of range.  If you are shooting up to 50-75 yards then there isn't any.

DP

[Leon]

Thanks Northern Minnesoootan I'll be doing my deer hunting about 100 miles east of you, long shots will definitely be a long shot at best. Leon         

[Roger Fisher]

Roger, you and Don Getz are anomalies - HA!  Just kidding. More power to you.

 I'm a very young 58 and get tickled every time I build or come into possession of a 'new-to-me' rifle or pelter.  Just goes with the territory.

 I lament selling my .58 Hawken - with that curved butt was not very pleasant to shoot - much rather shoot my .458.  Perhaps all the work & testing I did with it and the 'altered' Minnie's had something to do with that too. 140gr. and a 500gr. to 580gr. almost solid based Minnie's used to whack pretty good. It had a GRRW barrel on it and demanded to be fed large charges to shoot well.  140gr. was the accuracy load with RB as well.  That seemed to be the load I always had in her when moose hunting and walked into a flock of grouse - low hits were rather interesting - suspect they were low - bits and pieces all over. Shoot for the head, the head, stupid.

I work up a load that is the most accurate for the rifle - then use that load at all ranges. What shoots best at 50 to 100 yards, also shoots tiny bug holes at 25 yards. Sure, a weak close range 'target-type' load sometimes shoots well close in - afterall a good load in a smoothbore will cut a small hole for 5 shots at 25 yards, so a rifle should as well.  The problem becomes that you cannot test loads for accuracy at 25 yards, stopping when you find one that cuts shoots an inch, then expect that load to shoot well at longer ranges, unless that load is a healthy one.

It takes powder to shoot well at long range.  I know guys who can shoot to the capability of the rifle, Taylor is one, and can hit steel 'trail' targets every time - out to 75 yards, even more, with a light load in his .60 Jaeger or .50 Virginia.  But - put it on paper and it's not so hot - he's able to hit because his offhand groups match the best the rifle will do off the bench and the ten ring on a big steel plate is large.  He's a tremendous offhand shot - says he's poor off the bench. It's because his loads are not the best loads for the rifle, just a load he decided to use.  Off the bench or prone off a chunk, it's disheartening to say the least.

  Fringe hits score on a steel target, but - on a deer or moose, that fringe hit could run to the big bone of the leg, deflect and wound, not kill, or behind the diaphragm - same bad result.  A more accurate load will put the ball where the sights indicate - in the 'lights'.  With 120gr. to 140gr., recoil in a light rifle rifle would not be pleasant, but it will be very accurate with it. Afterall, it's a hunting rifle and should be loaded like one.

I move the charge up as I move 'out'!  Works for me!  I have over time moved up from 65 3 f Goex or Schuetzen to 80 3 f at 100 yds.  I really should do some rest shooting at 100 yds and go up to 85-90-95 whoa!  I blame a too slick bore for having to move up to the higher charges!   (She is a .45 15/16 straight 39 1/2 shooting a .454 and around a .016 patch (spit)

[Daryl]

Roger- I'll have to try some balls from my .454" mould in the .45 Gm barrel some day - probably wait until spring. I don't have a .451" mould, which would be the most logical place to start with oversized balls. I also have a .457" RB mold.  Cast up some .433" today - oops. wrong way.