A Comparison of Two Gunsmiths

[Rich N.]

A long time ago, an advanced collector told me that you can never be sure who made a rifle unless it was signed and original.  Over the years I've seen a lot of rifles that I was willing to "attribute" to a particular gunsmith based on what I had seen in the past.  Last week a friend showed me a rifle and I was positive who made it until I looked at the signature.  It sure was a humbling experience to find out that I wasn't even close.  In the future, I think I'll take a phrase from the art world and use the term "in the style of ..." instead of "attributed to ..."

Here are the works of the two different gunsmiths in question.  I'd sure like to hear the thoughts of the collective wisdom of this list about the possibilities of two pieces so much alike.  The two gunsmiths are Samuel Gross and Samuel Laudenslager.  They did work in the same areas at approximately the same time, but there is no known record of them ever working together.  Gross is believed to have learned the trade from his father Henry Gross, and Laudenslager is believed to have learned the trade from his uncle Samuel St.Clair.  The pictures posted here should be enough to show the similarities.  I would like to hear your theories on these two rifles.  If they built the gun together, wouldn't both of their signatures be on the rifle?





Gross Patchbox:
  

Laudenslager Patchbox:
  

[Nate McKenzie]

Two friends come into a gun shop. First one says, "I want a rifle just like his. Can you do it?"  Gunsmith takes a few rubbings, draws some sketches, and outlines the stock. Maybe he even borrows the rifle for a while and gets to work.

[Mark Elliott]

It appears that gunsmiths then copied just like gunsmiths now.   If that was in anyway common, then we don't know anything unless the gun is signed and notarized.

[Don Getz]

Rich........wow, If they were unsigned, or if just one was signed, you would have to attribute the unsigned one to the other.
Those patch boxes sure look like they were done by the same hand.  They must have been neighbors..........Don

[jdm]

Rich,
 It could be that they were close enough that they shared work.  Maybe job something out if they were real busy or the custom was in a hurry. I believe Rupp and Kuntz shared work.  I also like "in the style of".  JIM

[Shreckmeister]

I have seen 8 rifles made by William Shreckengost with other names on the barrel including the
rifle in the ALR library here  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14256.0
Another has a barrel signed N. Shenefelt.  Some makers would repurpose the barrels
off other rifles and not worry about whose name was on it.

[jamesthomas]

 Looks like they had a Track of the Wolf back then!! Those are some very nice rifles, wish I had one.

[Dphariss]

Two friends come into a gun shop. First one says, "I want a rifle just like his. Can you do it?"  Gunsmith takes a few rubbings, draws some sketches, and outlines the stock. Maybe he even borrows the rifle for a while and gets to work.

Or one is a restock by one or the other and did not change the barrel marking.

Dan

[Loudy]

Rich,
Interesting thread.  Thanks for posting the photos.  In my humble opinion, the "S. Gross" rifle is a re-barreled rifle made by Samuel Loudenslager from Center, Juniata Co., PA.  Here are my reasons for coming to this conclusion (or hunch)...

1) I have seen several other rifles signed "S*L" with nearly identical patchbox, engraving, triggerguard, buttplate, sideplate, upper and lower ramrod pipes, inlays, incised mouldings, cheek rest, buttstock profile, and lock panels.  All attributed to Samuel Loudenslager.

2) I have never seen another Samuel Gross attributed rifle with any of these same features. 

3) The fathers of both S. Gross and S. Loudenslager were from the same geographic area (Union/Snyder Co.,PA).   It's quite likely that the families were even acquainted with each other.  However, I'm not aware of any records which indicate that S. Gross and S. Loudenslager ever worked together or lived near each other. 

4) Samuel Gross moved from Juniata Co., PA to Seneca Co., OH in 1831 when he was about 21 years old with his gunsmith father and gunsmith brothers.  Census records indicate that Sam Gross lived continuously in the Bloom Twp., Seneca OH until his death in 1894.  Sam Loudenslager was born in 1812 near Selinsgrove in Snyder Co., PA.  He bought a farm and set-up his gunsmith shop in Juniata Co. near Mifflintown sometime during the period 1840-1850, at least ten years after Sam Gross left for Ohio.

5) The "S. Gross" rifle is equipped with a patent breech.  This is indication that the barrel was probably fitted to the stock sometime during the late percussion period >1850.     

6) During the mid 1850's many Upper Susquehanna families were moving West and settling on inexpensive land in Northwestern Ohio in and around Seneca County were Sam Gross worked.  It's quite possible that someone carried a Sam Loudenslager made rifle out to Ohio and for one of many plausible reasons went to gunsmith Sam Gross to have the rifle fitted with a new barrel. 

I'm hoping others will jump in here with their opinions. 

FYI... there are a couple nice Henry Groce (Gross) Sr. longrifles featured in an article by Dr. Whisker in an AOLRC newsletter. Here's a link...

http://www.aolrc.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/vol-xxiv-no-1-aug-2001.pdf
 
Henry was the father of gunsmith Sam Gross.  These rifles possess many of what I consider to be classic Union/Snyder County features.  Both guns were likely made before Henry and his family moved to Ohio. 

Thanks again for starting this interesting discussion.   

Mark Loudenslager