loly pop tang sight

[smylee grouch]

I have a loly-pop tang sight that I want to put on a rifle with a tappered barrel. Should I strive to get the sight perpendicular to the bore, to the top flat, or to my eye ball?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Make it perpendicular to the front sight, and straight up from the bore - not leaning left or right.

[Acer Saccharum]

I've seen them at odd angles, but I'd place it perp to the bore.

I'd also silver solder a bolster onto the tang that will allow a longer thread engagement. Or make a new plug out of solid that has the bolster integral.

Some of those lolly pops had 50 or more threads per inch; I doubt you'll find such a tap these days. 40 TPI might be the norm. MSC has specials, just make sure you can get a die to go with the tap. Get a round split adjustable die, that way you'll be able to tune the lolly thread to fit the tapped hole just right. You don't want no sloppin around.

Some of the tang sights have a dovetailed piece with the aperture in it, to allow for some windage.

Hooded front with a pin, or inserts for a high grade jobbie.

Good luck! Keep us posted.

Tom

[smylee grouch]

Thanks Taylor and Tom for the tips. I already have the sight, and it does have the hole in a dovetailed  slot in the loly pop that can be drifted to some extent and locked in place with a small screw. I also did plan to beef up the portion of the tang where the hole will be with a lug of sorts, silver soldered to the tang.

[Dphariss]

The best one I have done so far had no windage, this was in the front sight with a pointer machined into the sight base and graduations cut into the barrel as many originals were.
It is in a Hawken tang, is 1/4 x 80 thread and has a lock plate under the tang that is bound by tightening a screw. One screw holds the plate and is fixed, the one to the rear of the staff can be tightened to bind the staff so it cannot be turned. It also removes  any wobble in the threads.


Dan

[Dphariss]

And they need to be 90 degrees to the bore ideally when viewed from the side.

Dan

[Dphariss]

<snip>

Some of those lolly pops had 50 or more threads per inch; I doubt you'll find such a tap these days. 40 TPI might be the norm. MSC has specials, just make sure you can get a die to go with the tap. Get a round split adjustable die, that way you'll be able to tune the lolly thread to fit the tapped hole just right. You don't want no sloppin around.

Tom

MSC has some special taps and dies that are very fine thread. This is where I got my 1/4 x 80 set.
They have 80 thread taps in other sizes as well
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/63328678

Dan

[T*O*F]

I did one on an English rifle that the client wanted to shoot out to 200 yards.  I used a Pedersoli rear sight and a Lyman front one.  The Lyman comes in different heights.  I used one that made the line of sight parallel with the bore at the rear sights lowest setting.  The Pedersoli sight is such that you can adjust your sight base and then solder the adjuster to the base.

[Kermit]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Red_River_Sights_it-164090.aspx?CAT=4073

Red River Pope style schuetzen. Nice sight too, if a bit more modern.

[T*O*F]

Kermit,
Sights with fixed bases made to fit a specific gun are problematic as they don't usually fit any other gun and you have to end up making a base for your gun anyhow.

[P.W.Berkuta]

I did one on an English rifle that the client wanted to shoot out to 200 yards.  I used a Pedersoli rear sight and a Lyman front one.  The Lyman comes in different heights.  I used one that made the line of sight parallel with the bore at the rear sights lowest setting.  The Pedersoli sight is such that you can adjust your sight base and then solder the adjuster to the base.

Nice TOF -- Did you make the base? Is the base screwed onto the tang or soldered?

[sydney]

Hi --Looks great--how about some closer pictures of the base
       Also would like to see the engraving
         Thanks  Sydney

[T*O*F]

Nice TOF -- Did you make the base? Is the base screwed onto the tang or soldered?

I don't remember exactly how I did it, but I used a taught string and level.  It's been 4 or 5 years ago.  I started with a piece of brass bar stock and filed the bottom contour to fit the tang, which was slightly rounded.  Then I layed a straight edge along the barrel to the bar stock, marked it, and cut the top off, so the top of the base was even with the top barrel flat. 

This is the part I don't remember, but I came up with some kind of Rube Goldberg method.  At some point, I drilled and counterbored the front of the base to accept a screw to hold it to the tang.  I also drilled one at the rear of the base to accept the rebate on the bottom of the sight, but didn't drill thru the tang yet.  Then I progressively started filing off the top of the base until the sight was level with the bore at its lowest point.  I remember I tied a toothpick to a piece of string and ran it thru the aperature of the front sight and then thru the rear opening of the tang sight.  Held a level on the string and filed until both were level with the bore.  Then I drilled the rear hole and threaded it to accept the post.  So the post screws thru both the threaded nub of the sight and the tang, so the post also becomes the rear mounting screw.  Once all that was done, I contoured what was left into something that looked halfway decent.  However I did it was pretty ingenious at the time.

Syd......sorry, no better pictures.

[Acer Saccharum]

Dave, I have to say, for no matter how primitive the tools/materials are that you used, the concept was good. 

That's a fine looking rig, BTW.

T

[Kermit]

Sights with fixed bases made to fit a specific gun are problematic as they don't usually fit any other gun and you have to end up making a base for your gun anyhow.

Um, okay. I seem to be missing your point though. I'm pretty thick. 

[Curtis]

Dave,

It scares me sometimes, I take a very similar approach to building.  Sometimes it works (usually) and sometimes it don't (depends on how the juices are flowing) sometimes it fails miserably.

Curtis

[T*O*F]

Um, okay. I seem to be missing your point though. I'm pretty thick.   

Kermit
That's the 2nd time you've told me that.  Once more and you'll have convinced me.   

A tang mounted sight must be 90 degrees to the bore, or you will not be able to see thru the aperture.  That knob on the sight you referred to does not allow you to do this, as many assume.  Rather, a detent is built into the sight base and the screw locks it in place.  Loosening the screw allows you to fold the sight down for insertion into a carrying case.  If the detent were not there, every time you fired the rifle, the sight would move under recoil and you would have to reset it for each shot and having to do so results in a slightly different sight picture for each shot.  This is not conducive to repeatable marksmanship.

Every gun varies in the acute angle formed at the intersection of lines drawn thru the bore and the wrist.  The sight base design keeps the aperture at 90 degrees to the bore.  In addition, sight selection must allow sufficient adjustment throughout the range of distances that will be shot.  This is where the term "short sighted" comes in.  Front and rear sights must be matched to allow this.  Consider all the questions that are frequently asked by guys who can't get regular barrel mounted sights to shoot where they want at 100 yards.  Then consider what it takes to select sights that will shoot from 100 to 1200 yards with consistency.

[Kermit]

No need for a third. I guess it took a couple of opportunities for an explanation to emerge. Your point emerges. Finally. Like most conversations, if the discussion continues, eventually the parties arrive at something that approaches understanding.

Thanks for staying with me here. That's how I learn from this site.

[Acer Saccharum]

This most recent exchange between Kermit and Dave illustrates out how difficult it can be to either explain or understand using the written word.

Thanks for staying with it, gentlemen., I learned, too. 

[Acer Saccharum]

Not having much experience in long range shooting, but having a basic mechanical understanding of things, I have a question:

If the gun has to elevate a lot, say 5 degrees, to get enough elevation to reach out to 1000 yards, using a rear sight that is aligned with the bore, you now have to peep thru it with a 5 degree cant to the rear sight.

Would it not be better to set up the sight for the range you will be shooting at most, so that the sight is plumb to the line of sight?

For 100 to 200 yd, probably not an issue worth considering. But for long range, what's the answer?

[Kermit]

My dad taught me that if you are sitting in a class and you have a question, it's likely that several others in the class are wondering the same thing, but don't want others to see them as the only one who doesn't get it. If you're willing to appear the idiot and keep after an answer you can understand, you are not the only one who gets the information. I've never been afraid of going public with my ignorance. Heck, it's what got me through all those years of grad school!

Thanks, Dad!

[T*O*F]

Acer,
Good question!!  Obviously, for the lollipop type sights we are discussing, angle is a moot point because it's most likely for a roundball gun which might never be shot further than 300 yards, if that.

Long range is different.  For instance, one might initially want to shoot paper at 100 yards to get the sights with an initial zero as a starting point.  The long range aggregate at Friendship consists of silhouettes at 200 -500 yards, a paper target at 300 yards, and a Creedmore target at 500 yards.  The World long range matches are shot in 3 stages: short range 200-500 yards, mid range 600-900 yards, and long range 1000-1200 yards.  Distances may be off a bit, but you get the gist.  The same rifle is used for all courses of fire.

Since the eye is closest to the rear tang, some compensation of head placement will compensate for the changing angle.  However, as distances extend, the cheek comes off the stock as the head is raised to see thru the sights.  This is where interchangeable apertures in the front sight and the Hadley eye cup come into play.  They are sized so the target is framed within the sights, showing only a bit of white around it for centering purposes.  This helps compensate for the angle you asked about and still be able to see your target.

The base of the sight is designed so there is a very slight forward tilt to the staff.  Lay a straight edge along the top flat in the picture and you can see this.  But the higher you go, the difficulty becomes seeing thru the front aperture, because that is where the angle will affect sight picture.  The man who shoots the rifle pictured has his front sight dovetailed into a base which tilts slightly upwards and this compensates for that problem.  Unfortunately, I do not have a picture of it.  These guns also kick like 10 mules, so the detent for the staff is spring loaded and it flops forward under recoil to prevent poking your eye out.  It is then a simple matter of flipping the staff back into it's detent for the next shot.

Long range is shot in the prone position, either using X sticks or a wrist rest, but not both.  It may also be shot from the back position, in which case the rear sight would be mounted on the buttplate instead of the tang.

[Acer Saccharum]

Thanks, Dave. It makes sense to angle the front sight on a long range gun. I would not have thought of that if it were not for this thread.