Help ID this rifle

[jafo20]

Can anyone tell me about this rifle? Year range? Area built? Any info would be great.

Thanks

https://davidsworkshop.shutterfly.com/pictures

[Shreckmeister]

Maybe New York 1860-1880.  Someone else might have a better idea.

[jafo20]

Can anyone tell me what the eagle represents?

[eddillon]

Looks like a high quality New York gun to me also.  The eagle is merely decoration.  Remington Arms as well as other sources supplied eagle, running foxes, deer and other figures for makers to embellish their gunstock.  Rifle would be easier to identify with a couple of closer side complete profile views (left and right). A good side view of the buttstock would help nail it as a NY gun.
    

[smokinbuck]

New York is a maybe, I'm leaning more to western Pennsylvania. It is a later rifle and built to be used with the double keys and long tang, both of which add up to a sturdy and durable rifle.
Mark

[jafo20]

Added a pic

https://davidsworkshop.shutterfly.com/pictures/25

Thanks everyone

[eddillon]

New picture shows the telltale New York perch belly along the bottom line of the stock.  A more direct side view would help.  Ummm?  Mabe no perch belly.

[smokinbuck]

David,
Ohio had a lot of perch belly stocked rifles also but looking at the overall picture of the rifle I'm even more inclined to say even further west, possibly Missouri. Except for the trigger guard it almost has the look of a small bore Hawken rifle. My assessment on the value may be on the low side.
Mark

[Curt J]

Is there a name, or markings of any kind, on the top flat of the barrel?  It might be hard to see, if it has a little wear and dirt on it.

[eddillon]

Take a look at the library/Museum to get an idea of the type of photos needed to help identify.

[alboy]

https://balzerhalfstocklongfifle.shutterfly.com/pictures#n_5

I may be going against the flow of thinking for this half stock, but would like to suggest an alternative as a possible AL made rifle of the antebellum plantation period in central AL. The above photos are of a similar rifle made by George Balzer of Hayneville Ala pre war. It is silver mounted and has a carved ivory front sight for shooting alligators at night by lantern light. I believe Balzer's brick gunshop still stands as a storage building in Hayneville. Note the long tang, cheek rest, rear entry pipe, checkered grip, and silver appointments.

[jafo20]

Thanks... The rifles previous owner said it was a confederate rifle. But just a story.

[eddillon]

Those pictures presented by alboy have me convinced.  If so, a great find, David.

[oakridge]

I was waiting to see if the ideas about the origin of this rifle would drift South. If I can locate the photos, I can show a rifle almost identical to it - walnut stocked, back-action lock, double keyed, long tang and German silver mounted. Even has the same eagle inlay in the paneled cheekpiece. It was made by Louis Hoffman,
Vicksburg, Miss., ca. 1850's.

[nord]

The problem with identifying this late gun is that by 1850 or very shortly thereafter one could hop on a train and quickly be just about anywhere east of the Mississippi. Further, because of this it was not only people being easily transported, trade goods were also on the move.

My direct ancestors were located just west of Rome, NY in the town of Lee and my grandmother wrote of them being "seafaring" people. How could this be possible in the first part of the 19th Century? Then I began to do some research in connection with both the family name and also having to do with long rifles. I'll offer a quick compilation of what I found.

Worden Family:

John Worden - Captain of the USS Monitor and temporarily blinded in the engagement with CSS Virginia.

? Worden - Lost off the coast of Nicaragua

Worden Family - I found members scattered throughout the Great Lakes, then down the Mississippi.

The port of Oswego was within easy access to Lee and it became immediately clear that my grandmother was correct. Be it fresh water or salt these people were a seafaring family.

If one extrapolates the patterns I discovered to gunmakers it soon becomes clear that folks of 150 years in the past were very mobile. A man learning the gunmaking trade in NY could easily end up somewhere on the lower Mississippi within the span of only a very few days. A man in NY might have had family in Minnesota, Michigan, or Illinois and "commuted" between family locations. Even at the pace of a rather slow freighter it didn't take that long to sail the length of the Great Lakes.

Given the general availability of components by 1850, the mobility of anyone inclined to travel, and the fact that gunmakers tended to follow the trade, it becomes pretty clear that identifying an otherwise unsigned rifle to a particular maker or region is an imprecise task at best.

Of course we see exceptions to the above as certain communities continued to produce distinct items even well after the Civil War. Iron mounted southern guns being quite distinctive.

But this gun? It appears to have been made in a style consistent with the south shore of Lake Erie. Perhaps eastward to Rochester or Syracuse and westward to Michigan. The wild card here is that by the time this rifle was made anything other than the probable origin of the maker could well be disputed. In other words there were lots of NY guns made far to the west. Same with PA guns and others.

[jafo20]

Thanks Nord.... I enjoyed reading that. Makes it a mystery..... To bad these old rifles can't talk. If they did I probably wouldn't leave the house.

[jafo20]

Hello again everyone.... I have some better pics for you all. Let me know what you think about this rifle.

https://davidsworkshop.shutterfly.com/pictures

Thank you
David

[oakridge]

My thoughts haven't changed. I've seen many similar rifles of Southern and Mid-western origin, typically 1850's period. By that time rifle mountings (iron, brass and German silver) could be purchased wholesale by gunmakers, and you will see identical inlays on guns made in different areas of the country. This is a really nice rifle, but if unmarked, it's anybody's guess.

[JTR]

I agree with oakridge.
I had a very similar rifle. It was all silver mounted, and had the same little side plate, etc, but had a deer on the cheekpiece. It also had a very nicely engraved full patchbox, but nary a clue as to who made it.
John

[JCKelly]

Some day when you've nothing to do but risk breaking an old screw, if you take the barrel off see what might be stamped underneath. Like, the barrel maker's name. Which still does not identify it but would be one more clue.
Remington was the most prolific barrel maker, but also NE of Ithaca, NY were Lull & Losey, in Pittsburgh Postly, Nelson & Co, and in Worcester, Massachusetts Hitchcock & Muzzy, later Muzzy & Co.  The barrel may or may not be stamped CAST STEEL, which is more or less similar to a modern plain carbon steel like 1035 or 1040

[oakridge]

Looks like a hooked breech. If so, just take the ramrod out, cock the gun, and push the keys out. Barrel should lift out of stock from muzzle end and unhook from the tang. If the keys are slotted, be careful. They may be pinned, so don't try to drive them all the way out. Another thing - what is that in front of the patent breech that looks like a hole in the barrel?

[jafo20]

Not sure what your seeing... The barrel hooks into the breech and I did remove it. No marks at all that I seen.