Author Topic: Tool Chests?  (Read 12459 times)

Offline Elnathan

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Tool Chests?
« on: September 15, 2013, 12:20:22 AM »
I have been looking at 18th and early 19th century joiners' tool chests for a couple years now. Here is an example of a pretty fancy one: http://www.wkfinetools.com/tmaking/art/seatonchest/part1/sChest2.asp
There are more utilitarian versions as well.

Has anyone ever seen an original tool chest made to house gunsmith tools? I need something to keep my tools organized and protected, and a tool chest of this kind might be just the ticket, at least for a lot of them.
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2013, 12:27:32 AM »
I've not heard of one.  Since they worked in a shop would they have needed a chest?
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2013, 12:50:17 AM »
I've not heard of one.  Since they worked in a shop would they have needed a chest?


Well, the cabinetmakers used chests and they worked in a shop, so I assume that it is possible. The tool chests I have been looking at are about 3 by 2 by 2 feet and weigh several hundred pounds when loaded, so they are not designed to be carried around from job to job on a day to day basis. They are evidently intended to store tools in the shop and allow efficient access in a small space.
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2013, 08:16:40 AM »
A journeyman cabinetmaker's tool chest served also to function as example of his skill when "journeying" from one shop/job to another.
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2013, 09:01:12 PM »
I would like to start by saying I am NOT an expert on 18th century tool boxes, but I have been studying them for years to eventually make one for me. 

The Master’s tools would have hung from pegs on the walls or on shelves in the shop, but he may/could have kept a box of expensive and or small tools that he locked up.   Of course larger tools like a rifling bench or lathe would have been in the shop free standing. Apprentices and Journeymen would have kept their tools in a box, even in the shop of a/the Master, until they became a journeyman and left the Master’s Shop and started a shop of his own OR worked for someone else.  I imagine the Apprentice’s and Journeyman’s box or boxes would have gotten more numerous or larger as he acquired/made more tools.

At the old gunsmith shop at Colonial Williamsburg about 10 years ago, they had a rather SMALL box that was less than two feet long and only about a foot or maybe 16 inches wide and 18 or more inches tall.  It was a ‘six board” box.  (They told me the boards for it came from New England and were White Pine as boards that wide are not found in Virginia unless someone has a tree specially cut at a saw mill.)   I had asked about what might be “correct” for an Artificer/Armorer and they pointed to that box, though I THINK it was meant to represent an Apprentice’s Box.  I was surprised it was so small and did not have even a tray or till in it, it was just a basic box. It also did not have even one “band” or “skirt boards”  added around the bottom, let alone the top, that are dovetailed opposite the way the box boards were dovetailed to keep the wood from racking.  The lid was one board and did not have end boards add that drop down to act as a dust shield and keep the lid from racking.  It did not have handles on it. 

Back in the mid 70’s, I saw original 18th century boxes like this (though larger) in some antique stores in Fredericksburg, VA and was informed these were just basic ‘traveling boxes” for storage of anything travelers wanted to put in them OR shipping boxes.  The dovetails and pins in those boxes were pretty large, though, and especially for pine boxes.  I was surprised at how large the pins for the dovetails were on those boxes. I was informed these boxes were sort of like modern day packing crates and were originally rather hastily thrown together and not really expected to last a long time, though they were around 200 years old then.  Grin.

Honestly, I can’t think of a reason why even a Journeyman Gunsmith would have what I might call a “traveling box” of tools like Modern Day Military Armorers have.  Joiners would often carry the tools they needed for a day’s work in either braided grass baskets or canvas bag “tote” (not the period correct term) in the 18th century and return the tools to the shop at night.  MAYBE something like that was done at Williamsburg, VA when The Geddy Shop was paid to clean/repair firearms in the Magazine and the work was done at the Magazine.  I THINK gunsmiths normally would not have gone to some other place to work guns, though they may have picked them up from clients and brought them back to the shop to work on them and returned them when done.  The only common “traveling gunsmiths” I know of in the 18th century were Artificers/Armorers who traveled with the Military. 

Armorers/Artificers would have kept their tools in boxes as they traveled with normally the Artillery and assigned to a Regiment or a storage depot.  Here is a drawing of an Artificers’/Armorers’ Wagon I have been informed was of an English Regiment from around the middle of the 18th century.  http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/firelock/PaulSandbyThegunsmith.jpg

One of what might be my silliest questions on making my box was “How big should I make it?”  Took me asking about four times to stop asking that question because the answer ALWAYS was, “How big and how many tools do you have?”  In my case: the largest tools would be a brace, a Lancaster pattern Hack Saw, and either a carcass saw or Bow Saw and a medium size period “clamp on” vise.  I don’t plan on making my box large enough to hold planes as I won’t use them at most reenactments and I want to keep the box at a size I can still pick up and carry.  Grin. 

OK, so what about smaller tools like punches, files, chisels, etc? 
The simplest original method is to have one or two sliding tills in the box and the till/s have divided sections in them for the smaller tools.  What I did not realize was with sliding tills, you can slide them back and forth to get down to the second till or slide both out of the way to get down to the larger section at bottom of the chest.  So the tills are never as wide front to back as maybe half the distance of the inside of the chest front to back.  In SOME chests, there was a sliding chest of drawers for small tools.  The BEST book to give you ideas AND answer questions you may not have even though about I’ve found is:  The Toolbox Book: A Craftsman's Guide to Tool Chests, Cabinets, and Storage Systems by Jim Tolpin (Sep 1, 1998)  I bought my copy at a Woodcraft store, but it is available on Amazon and a number of sources. 

Here are some other things I found out about 18th century tool boxes I did not know even though I have a couple late 19th century wood tool boxes that belonged to my Great Grandfather. While you can make the bottom of the box out of just a single board, they usually or often didn’t do it that way.  In the grooves cut for the bottom, they put boards running front to back and sometimes they were tongue and groove to fit together and sometimes they just fit up against each other, though not tight so they could expand and contract with the environment.  This gave more strength for the bottom AND they did not have to use a large board in the bottom that would have bowed with time from the weight of heavy tools. 

Something else I would not have thought about was they NAILED “sacrificial” boards to the bottom of the chest and normally front to back.  These were often usually just rough sawn boards as their whole purpose was to keep the chest off dirt packed floors or the grass outside and the boards were replaced when rotted out from moisture or got insect infected.  I am not sure, but perhaps/maybe/probably when such chests were kept in a shop with a wood floor, they may not have had such sacrificial boards nailed to the bottom.  I don’t know for certain.

As to the construction of the lid; it SEEMS they made them from either one board or sometimes a board with side boards held by tenons and pins to keep the lid from racking and act as a dust shield or used a panel top depending on how big and how fancy the chest was.  The panel top lids seem to be very late 18th century and I don’t know how early they MAY have been used for tool chests generally.  I plan on using one board (or two boards glued together if I can’t get one board large enough) with the side boards tennoned and pinned as that style was common as early as the late 17th century and would thus be “correct” for any 18th century reenactment.  Of course IF I can find more documentation the panel top WAS earlier, I might do that instead.  (Chests in the 17th century were often constructed of panels even on the sides, but I think that style died out by the 18th century.  However, once again, I’m not certain.) Oh a GREAT TIP I’ve read more than once is NOT to cut the lid board to final dimension UNTIL the box part of the chest is done.  That way you cut the lid to fit the box just like they did in the 18th century and especially if the box is not quite square.  They used a larger board and went around the sides of the top of the box with a compass to mark where they would cut the lid board.  Also if you use one large board for the lid, you have to think about how it will cup over time and which side to install downwards. Here is what I’ve found about that:  “Any board that is flatsawn will have a tendency to cup...the direction of cupping can be seen by looking at the end of the board...think of the board trying to straighten out the growth rings...that's how it will cup.”  Now I may be entirely wrong, and someone PLEASE correct me if so, but that sounds to me like you should put the curved portion of the grain facing downward?  Maybe the side boards tennoned and pegged take care of such cupping? 

One thing I never thought about was how to attach handles for the chest until I began studying originals and reading The Toolbox Book mentioned above.  MOST of the original boxes I saw did not have handles because screwed on handles could//would crack the wood sides of the chest.  The Toobox Book shows a couple of ways to get around that by adding boards to the sides that had holes in them for rope or metal handles.  I’m NOT sure how often that was done, though, on original 18th century boxes. 

Roy Underhill designed what he calls “A Joiner’s Box” that was published in Popular Woodworking Magazine, but all the links I’ve found don’t work.  It may give you some ideas and was designed to be made from “modern size” boards. Here IS a link that works and may give you some ideas:  http://mcnabbsstation.blogspot.com/2011/03/underhil-tool-chest.html

Now here are some things I am not sure about and maybe someone else can help.  I don’t know how big tool chests were before they added the bottom “skirt boards” that were dovetailed opposite the way the box was made.  Personally, I plan on using at least a bottom skirt as that is where they nailed the sacrificial boards on the bottom of the chest and I plan on putting the chest on the ground at reenactments.  Not sure if I’m going to use a skirt on the sides below the lid, as I don’t know how early that was done or IF it even needs to be done on a small/medium sized chest. 

Oh, as to finding wide enough boards for the chest, that can be a bugger – depending on how tall you want the chest.  The widest boards I’ve ever found locally in Virginia were 16 inches.  I’ve even checked with sawmills and they usually won’t even answer an inquiry on wider boards.  Some folks have informed me that wider boards might be found from flooring reclaimed from old houses.  Here are some sources, though I have not personally used them:

These next are for white pine:

http://www.berkshireproducts.com/?gclid=CJ3829WN7LkCFbRQOgod3GMAkw

http://www.goodwoodvt.com/pine_boards.html

http://www.fernaldlumber.com/Fernald_TPS_WidePine2.html

http://www.craftsmanlumber.com/products.htm

http://wrrobinsonlumber.com/contact/

Heart Pine would also be correct, but is long gone from Virginia:

http://www.redhillslumber.com/?gclid=CIKuzrGP7LkCFctxOgodgGMAug

Hope this helps, Gus

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2013, 02:40:35 AM »
http://www.amazon.com/The-Tool-Chest-Benjamin-Seaton/dp/0947673075

I had no idea this little book was getting so pricey, but a little web search on the Seaton chest might also provide you some alternative good info on this period chest and its contents...many of which could be adapted to gun smithing....but gun smithing also encompasses so much iron and forge work too, and I dont think those tools were commonly
boxed like a joiners stuff? Maybe the heavy stuff like anvils, hammers, vises, etc...were shop property in a place like Williamsburg.
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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2013, 03:50:40 AM »
Thanks y'all.

Gus, thanks for writing all that out for me! I am familiar with Tolpin's book - it was actually that book which got me interested in tool chests to begin with. Roy Underhill, in addition to that video, has some more information on tool chests in one of his books, and I have another plan I found in a book called the Practical Woodworker (I don't remember much about this book, but I have some scans in my files).


I am actually not as interested in reproducing an 18th century tool chest per se (although that would be fun) as I am in building something for everyday use. Without going into a lot of detail, I have spent pretty much my adult life either using the work area in my parents' basement, who are not keen on me spreading my tools around, or in the kitchen of a small apartment, and I don't see much likelihood of this changing anytime soon. Given that it is unlikely that I will have a dedicated workshop of my own in which to build shelves and hang tools in the near future and it is somewhat likely that I will be moving fairly often, the idea of a tool chest that is fairly compact yet allows easy access to tools and that can be moved from one residence to another has a lot of appeal. It would certainly be nicer than the cardboard box and overstuffed plastic toolbox I have now!

My interest in what a gunsmith might use was to try to avoid reinventing the wheel - most joiner's chests have to accommodate for a lot of molding planes - something that I don't have to worry about - and have a lot less room for small tools like files and punches. Blacksmithing stuff would get its own separate box.
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2013, 06:55:13 AM »
"MOST of the original boxes I saw did not have handles because screwed on handles could//would crack the wood sides of the chest.  The Toobox Book shows a couple of ways to get around that by adding boards to the sides that had holes in them for rope or metal handles.  I’m NOT sure how often that was done, though, on original 18th century boxes."

Take a look at sea chests. The rope handles are "beckets," and some were very elaborate--examples of the sailor's marlinspike skills. The becket cleats (the wooden thingies) were often attached with rivets going all the way through. I used to make sea chests on occasion for clients, and always attached the cleats with proper copper rivets and roves. Try Jamestown Distributors or that chandlery in Port Townsend, Washington whose name escapes me just now. Put the rove on the outside--much easier to peen that way.

The rope beckets should be made large enough that when pulled up, they clear the top of the chest. Otherwise you smash your knuckles against the chest when trying to carry it. That also allows for a pole to be inserted across the top through both "handles" so two men could hoist the pole to rest on their shoulders. No way one man can move a loaded chest, especially on a gangplank boarding a ship for that next two-year voyage hunting whales in the Pacific.

http://www.marlinespike.com/sea_chests.html

http://www.frayedknotarts.com/beckets.html
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2013, 11:38:59 AM »
Kermit,

Thanks for chiming in about Sea Chests and Beckets.  I really enjoyed that being a retired Marine with a long interest in early history.  I did not know the rope “handles” were called beckets and appreciate that.  I have seen reproductions at Jamestown and even four or five original early sea chests here in Virginia, though they no longer had their beckets and only two had their original becket cleats.  I came across them when looking for and studying original tool chests.  One time I thought about making one to go along with my Continental Marine Impression, but I did not know enough about making them and could not find the information back in the 70’s.

You are absolutely right the beckets must be long enough so you don’t bang your knuckles when lifting the box and are best when long enough a pole can be used between them.  Grin.

Thanks for the info on the copper rivets as I did not know that.  It makes sense as copper is a soft metal and closer to the hardness/density of wood than iron and having more give would not rip or crack the wood as easily. 

On a tool box that is not real heavy, that would be a great idea as well !! (Not sure at what point a tool chest would get too heavy for using them?) Anyone who came here by ship from Europe in the 17th through early 19th century, at least, would have seen sailor’s boxes aboard ship and even though many tool chests don’t have such handles on them, it is quite possible some people remembered those beckets and applied them to their “landlubber” chests.   Yes, that term dates to 1690-1700, so it is applicable to the era.  Grin. 

Again, thanks for the idea!

Gus

Offline Artificer

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2013, 01:22:38 PM »
Elnathan,

You are most welcome for the information.  I can appreciate your situation as my first two benches were built in spare bedrooms in apartments and then I built another 6 or 7 work benches in various garages or basements over the years as I moved around in the Marine Corps and since retirement.  I started out with a steel Kennedy Machinist’s Tool Box we got from the Manufacturer’s “second” outlet in Ohio.  (When a good friend went home on leave to Fort Wayne, IN, he would pick up boxes for anyone who wanted  them along the way.  They were cheap enough we all bought whatever we could afford.)  I now own four of the standard size Kennedy chests, one oversize chest and base and a roll away to put them on. I STILL have lots of stuff on shelves and a couple filing cabinets and shelves with drawers, though.  Just like gas in the atmosphere, one seems to expand “their stuff” to the size of their container. GRIN.  Over the years, I often went to Goodwill stores to buy used dressers for pretty cheap to put in my shop to store larger stuff and put tool boxes on them.  I didn’t care what style or color they were, just that they were made of good enough wood to handle some weight in the drawers. 

Getting back to something in the period of the forum, I ran across ONE interesting tool box years ago in Massachusetts back in the 80’s that was dated to 1740 and was not a “common” tool chest for that period and would be good for many small to medium gunsmithing tools.   I walked past it twice before something told me to look at it again, because at a casual glance, it looked like a late 19th century wall hung tool cabinet.    Basically it was a free standing chest of drawers and not too wide front to back, but what was interesting was the slat “door” was just one piece of thin wood.  The bottom of the slat door had a tongue cut to go into a slot at the bottom front of the chest.  Both sides had a slot for a vertical piece of wood to hold the slat door in place.  I never even heard of such a slat door used on a vertical chest of drawers for tools or anything else. 

Now even then I knew you could not trust Antique Dealers to always be right about the age and provenance of original boxes.   However, I had been fortunate to haunt many historic places and look at a LOT of original pieces by that time.  I also had asked and was allowed on many occasions to look in depth at original pieces so by then I had a good “feel” for it.  Yeah, I’m the guy who was allowed to pull out original drawers and stick my heat inside the case work and look under and behind pieces to see how things were constructed.  Grin.  A little sweet talking to the Ladies of the Virginia Historic Society has gone a long ways over the years, Bless their hearts.  Grin. It was also a good thing I usually carried a pair of clean white gloves to put on.  The Marines at Cash Sales often wondered what I was doing buying so many pairs of them!!

Anyway, that tool box might not have been quite that old, but it definitely was from the 18th century. It also was not a spice or storage cabinet as the construction was meant for heavy objects and the use and patina of the piece showed that.  There was no way of knowing exactly what that tool box was used for as it was empty in situ.  Of course I did not have the $ 800.00 they were asking for it, so I did not buy it. 

Gus

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2013, 04:49:14 PM »
What antique dealers don't know, they make up. And I have many times seen items mislabled in "museums," those well-meaning small town ones especially.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2013, 08:15:35 PM »
 Wow, this topic really takes me back. When I was young, and just getting started, I worked for an electrical supply store. I was sent out to a remote business that sold used and obsolete tools, and building material, to look at an antique electrical panel. Being a toolaholic, I made sure I saw everything this guy had to sell as well. In a corner of the shop, was a large chest beautifully dove tailed together. Since my dad was a woodworker I appreciated the obvious value of such a finely made chest. The owner opened the chest to expose a complete set of stair mechanics tools, including a full set of hand made molding planes, with lignum vita bodies, and hand made irons. I could have bought the entire chest for a couple of hundred buck, but didn't have the money. I think of those plains, and chisels, and scrapers, every time I start working on a gunstock, and kick myself.

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2013, 02:52:19 AM »
Elnathan...
the following was on PBS today and just thought I'd pass it along. If you go to www.woodsmithshop.com you can view the show in it's entirety. Drop down to Free Plans and Videos and click on SEARCH. Just click on Classic Tool Chest.                  

http://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/607/grandpas-tool-chest.pdf

          CW
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 02:54:13 AM by dogface »

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2013, 05:48:14 AM »
Thanks, Dogface. I don't think I have seen that one before.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Artificer

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 10:45:54 AM »

I just happened to catch that show on PBS as well as it was right after “The Woodwright’s Shop.”

I don’t mean to be a smart alec, but I couldn’t help but wonder why the original Apprentice’s Tool box was nailed together on the sides and fronts, instead of dovetailing them?  I would have thought an Apprentice’s project would call for dovetailing them? 

This leads to other questions about 18th century Tool Boxes that my research has not yet answered.  I think I may be at the point of having just enough information to be dangerous.  Grin.

It seems 17th century boxes were made with nails and even straps of iron around the corners to further strengthen them.  It seems they used an angled rabbet joint along the entire upright sides on the ends to help hold the ends in place.  (Sort of like a half of a dovetail or like how sliding wood patchboxes were held in gun stocks.)  Those angled rabbet joints could have been made with planes or even chisels and mallet.   But, the historic “problem” is that nails were extremely expensive. 

It seems as early as 1645 the practice of burning down old houses and buildings was so common to retrieve nails, the Virginia Legislature agreed by law that those who abandoned their plantations would receive a number of nails in exchange, so they would not burn the buildings down to retrieve the nails. Nails were still extremely expensive in the 18th century.  This and other good info on early nails may be found in many places, but here’s a link: http://www.gregorylefever.com/pdfs/Early%20Nails%202.pdf

So, why did they stop using nails (it seems) and start dovetailing boxes?  I believe the answer to that was the technological leap in both steel making and saw making in the 18th Century.  Up until that time, most saws for carpentry and cabinet work were some kind of bow or framed saws.  (Such saws continued to be used all the way through the 18th century in this country and even by some of the most prestigious cabinet makers .)  The saw blades were not wide and to keep the blades straight to saw true, they were kept under tension.    Some time in the early 18th century, steel making and rolling mills allowed saw blades for hand saws to be made in the basic form we still see today.  Though dovetails could be cut without a saw or even with a fine bladed bow saw; the modern style saw with brass wrapped around the top of the blade to stiffen it - made it eminently more practical and faster with good strength of the joints in dovetail joinery, thus making dovetail joinery cheaper than using expensive nails.  I don’t know if anyone knows exactly when the modern style hand saws came into use, but here is an interesting link showing a 1747 Tombstone with such a modern type hand saw:  http://www.davistownmuseum.org/toolSaws.html

Another question arises and that is by much more costly expense of a modern style handsaw designed for cutting dovetails, who would have owned them?  My answer would be Joiners’ Shops or Journeyman Joiners and in the work shops of larger estates or plantations.  A Joiners Apprentice’s tool chest would be a natural way to begin teaching the Apprentice how to make dovetails, as such dovetails would not need to be as refined as on some furniture.  There would also be no need to buy or trade for expensive nails. 

The next question is which makes a stronger and and longer lasting joint – dovetails or nailed butt joints?   The answer to that has to come from how much stress was placed on the joint/s.  Six board chests used to store clothing and blankets were joined with nails well into the mid 19th century and many of them from the 18th century survive today with their original nails and many in good and tight condition.  However, not much stress was ever placed on those joints.   As to tool chests, most that survive today from the 18th through the mid 19th century (and even later) are joined with dovetails.  Some of those chests are downright huge with more stress on the joints from heavier tools.  Square nails hold better than modern common round nails and they did chisel barbs in square nails for extra holding power when the nails were not driven through and clenched over.  Yet even barbed square nails will eventually loosen in butt joints as the wood shrinks and swells over the seasons and especially if the box is often used outdoors as a Journeyman’s Tool Chest would have been used.  Dovetail joints hold together even when the glue fails.  Though a square nailed butt joint may have been or was stronger than a dovetail joint, it seems the dovetail joints were strong enough for use in even the largest Tool Chests.   

Now how would an Apprentice’s or Journeyman Gunsmith’s chest been constructed in the 18th century?  He would have access to a forge and nail making for a chest would have been something he could have done right in the shop.  Would a Gunsmith’s shop have normally had a fine dovetail saw?  I don’t know.  I could see them having a good crosscut saw in the modern style, but a fine dovetail saw – maybe or probably not unless the Gun Shop was in a larger populated area.  So maybe a nailed tool chest would have been more likely for a Gunsmith’s Apprentice or Journey Gunsmith?  I don’t know and I’ve never been able to get a definitive answer. 

Gus

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2013, 11:43:09 AM »
Nails and nail headers, an intro...

http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/rdnailh/top_index.htm

Chapter 2...

http://www.piehtoolco.com/Product_Info/nailheading.htm

Buncha stuff on nailmaking on YouTube.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 12:07:10 PM by Kermit »
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2013, 05:32:48 PM »
Kermit,

May I pick your brain on using the copper rivets and roves to hold the cleats on the sides of wooden boxes?  I am in totally in uncharted waters here and don’t want to wind up on the rocks and shoals.  The only experience I have with copper rivets was when I made some Un-Civil War era holsters and other leather gear that required them to be authentic. 

First off, do you use something like the Rose Head Copper Nails for the rivet and pictured in the following link?  If so what size do you use?  From the chart, I see sizes of  9g = .1440”, 8g = .1600”,6g = .1920”, and  4g = .2320”; but am not sure what size to get. Also, should there be a copper washer between the head of the nail  and the body of the cleat?
http://nwmaritime.org/chandlery/fasteners-page-2

I’ve seen domed washers before, but didn’t know they were called “roves.”   Are roves authentic for the 18th century?  If not, I could use copper or brass bronze washers?  Now I realize this is a dumb question, but I “assume” the domed side of the rove is placed on top of the wood when you use these and crushes down a bit?

As to installation technique, thanks for suggesting putting the roves on the inside of the chest.  Do you need to slightly chamfer the holes for the rivets on the inside of the chest as the rivets will expand a bit when you pound them over?  Looking at the cleats on the sea chests, I assume they positioned them so the holes for the rivets would be over top of each other and that way less likely to split the grain of the wood?  Along with that, do you use  two rivets on each side or four?  I imagine two per side would be enough?

Any information you would care to give would be most appreciated including anything I have not thought to ask about.

Gus

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2013, 11:45:56 PM »


So, why did they stop using nails (it seems) and start dovetailing boxes?  I believe the answer to that was the technological leap in both steel making and saw making in the 18th Century.  Up until that time, most saws for carpentry and cabinet work were some kind of bow or framed saws.  (Such saws continued to be used all the way through the 18th century in this country and even by some of the most prestigious cabinet makers .)  The saw blades were not wide and to keep the blades straight to saw true, they were kept under tension.    Some time in the early 18th century, steel making and rolling mills allowed saw blades for hand saws to be made in the basic form we still see today.  Though dovetails could be cut without a saw or even with a fine bladed bow saw; the modern style saw with brass wrapped around the top of the blade to stiffen it - made it eminently more practical and faster with good strength of the joints in dovetail joinery, thus making dovetail joinery cheaper than using expensive nails.  I don’t know if anyone knows exactly when the modern style hand saws came into use, but here is an interesting link showing a 1747 Tombstone with such a modern type hand saw:  http://www.davistownmuseum.org/toolSaws.html


Gus,

Dovetails can be made with bow-saws - Tage Frid used bow-saws filed with ripping teeth for pretty much everything. Modern handsaws were something of an British trait, I believe, and Continental woodworkers used bow-saws for general work into the 20th century. I use one myself from time to time.


You have a good point about the necessary skills to make dovetails versus access to a forge for making nails. I suspect that a gunsmith who really wanted to make dovetails could manage to do so with tools he already owned, though.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2013, 07:33:29 AM »
A riveting discussion:

http://www.faeringdesigninc.com/instruct.html

Sources:

http://www.faeringdesigninc.com/fst-flat.html
http://nwmaritime.org/chandlery/fasteners-page-4


First, use square shanks. They hold the roves much better. If you looked at the sources, you saw they are very spendy. Price of copper, you see. Then, I use flat heads countersunk to be flush on the INSIDE of the box. The peened copper snags things in there. You need to back up the head while you set the rove nice and tight. There are those who will try to sell you a 50 buck tool to do that, but unless you are building several lapstrake boats, don't. I have cut off 6" or so lengths of hickory hammer handles, bored a deep hole in one end, and champhered the end to leave about the diameter of the roves I'm using. So the rove goes outside, right? Against the cleat. Once the rove is set nice and snug, cut off the excess with big dykes or similar tool (expensive waste if you bought them way long), and while backing the head inside with a heavy iron chunk (old maul or sledge head or a hunk or railroad rail), peen the cut end. Takes a few smart blows. I worked with an old fellow once who consistently peened with 3 blows. I can do it with 5-6, but you won't need to develop that production skill level.

No washer under the head. You're not using rose heads--or round shanks. The rove may crush a little, but the wood may likely crush more. No splitting allowed--bore for the rivet, all the way. It's not a nail, though it may look like one. Longer rivets only come pretty heavy. I think I've always used 3-4 per cleat, depending on the size and shape I've made up. I order rivets about an inch longer than the length of the longest hole will be.

The cleat does not have a hole for the becket, as such, but more a notch on the back against the box. I drill a hole and then cut in to it with a bandsaw or backsaw. I cut in at an angle so the notch is lower against the box and higher away from the side. This allows the becket to rest against the box while hanging down, but to pull out away when lifting. Making sense?

Spend some time searching Google images for sea chests and look at how they were/are made. And BTW, I've used iron rings on some small chests, but prefer simple rope grommets. I've taken to making them using shroud knots rather than long splicing. You can get all carried away and learn to worm, parcel, and serve the beckets, but that can come much later. No need to show off marlinespike skills if you don't plan to go to sea. You'd spend more time on a pair of fancy beckets than you did on the box.

Another thing that may not be obvious: you make the rope handles before the cleat gets fastened on. No sense trying to work it while attached to the box. And if your skills improve or a becket fails, you file off the peened end of the rivets, pull the cleat, and re-rivet with new copper and your new beckets. Search Google images for sea chest beckets or sea chest becket cleats for a look-see for ideas. Anything goes. Even screws. And you'll find machine screws with washers and nuts. ;)

Pretty fractured description, this. Stream of consciousness here. Keep asking questions and there's a remote possibility I can make sense.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Artificer

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2013, 01:08:33 PM »
Gus,

Dovetails can be made with bow-saws - Tage Frid used bow-saws filed with ripping teeth for pretty much everything. Modern handsaws were something of an British trait, I believe, and Continental woodworkers used bow-saws for general work into the 20th century. I use one myself from time to time.

Elnathan,

Yes, I was aware that in the both the British and Continental traditions that wood framed “bow” saws were used well into the 20th century for furniture making and other trades, though the British tradition adopted the modern style handsaw first. 

This is some of my own ignorance, I’ll readily admit, about saw blades available for use in the 18th century and saw sharpening in general for wood saws. I have a wood framed “turning saw” I purchased from Woodcraft years ago.  I never thought about getting a wider blade for that saw, that could be used for cutting dovetails, but I probably should have.   

So far my main research on 18th century saw blades has been for hacksaws for metal and especially for the Lancaster Pattern Hacksaw.  (That’s because in my work, a Hacksaw is used MUCH more than wood saws, so I started with that.  Grin.)  Fortunately for me, the Lancaster Pattern Hacksaw was still being made as late as the early 20th century, so they are not as difficult to find as some other 18th century tools. I found out that period hack saw blades came from Britain and Europe in a roll, sort of like modern band saws, and they snapped off a piece from the roll for whatever size the customer needed for his saw and sold the blades by the inch.  I believe the teeth were already filed into the roll of saw blade “stock.”  Then the customer took the snapped off blades, ground off the burrs from where the blade had been snapped off on each end and hot punched holes in each blade to fit his saw frame.

What I don’t know is if saw blades for wood framed saws came the same way or if they came in somewhat standard lengths.  Either way, a thin and wide blade with more teeth per inch and not much set would cut dovetails, to be sure.  But that sort of saw blade would not have been of much use to a Gunsmith (I think) for anything but dovetails and thus it is not as likely of a tool available in a Gunsmith’s shop. 

However, I do agree dovetails could have been cut in a Gunsmith’s shop if they really wanted to, but that was not a skill necessary to a Gunsmith.

Making nails was often done by lads as young as 6 to 10 years old. 
“Nail stock” was sold in long square rods.  It did not require a full size forge as original engravings show it was often done in what they called a brazier to heat the ends to form the heads.  I think they cold formed the points or they could have been heated in the same brazier to hot form them.  I think in this country, nails were made in Blacksmith shops by young lads until they got old enough and strong enough to start their apprenticeship and thus could “earn their way” besides doing other simple tasks.  (Nails were also made by non skilled folks to make money on the side or for their own uses.)   However, since a Gunsmith had to have a forge and nail making is a very simple task to begin learning to work at a forge, I THINK nail making was something they were taught or at least could easily do.  The reason is Gunsmiths would have needed nails to make many things other than directly related to gunsmithing.  However, this is PURE speculation on my part.

Gunsmith’s apprentices did have to learn to use a Jointer Plane, Scrub planes and other planes to square a gun stock blank on at least the sides and top.  These same planes would be used to make boards for his tool chest.  What better way to teach a lad how to use these planes than making his first tool chest out of wood that was not as hard or as expensive as gun stock wood?  The apprentice either had or at least could have been taught to make nails.  Dovetailing was not a skill required, so I think it likely at least his first chest was built using nails.  Maybe his second chest, or Journeyman’s, chest was built with dovetails?

If this sounds like I’m arguing with myself, that is exactly what I’m doing as I plan my own chest or maybe two chests.  Grin.  I think I’m going to add some of these questions and my thought processes to my list of questions in the Joiner’s Shop and Geddy Shop at Colonial Williamsburg on my next trip since I’m only a little over an hour’s drive away.  I usually spend most of my time asking questions recently in the Gunsmith and Harness shop, but it looks like I really need to add the Joiner’s shop this time.
Gus

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2013, 01:56:37 PM »
Kermit,

I really, REALLY appreciate you adding the links, into and tips.  Thank you so much.  I’m adding this information to my “file” for the tool chest.

OK, I got it about using the square shank nails for rivets. I also appreciate the link on setting the roves.  I have a four pound hand maul in my kit I think someone gave me.  I don’t use it often, but now I have another use for it!  Grin. 

I looked at the original cleats and on the rivets I could see, they seemed to have a square head of the rivet on the outside of the cleat and the rove inside the chest.  Never thought about putting them on with the roves outside the cleat so they would not get in the way with storage inside.  THANK YOU.  I will do more searching on the web for sea chests to look at more of them.

Neat info on making the notch in the cleat for the becket.  I would not have thought about that.

Speaking of beckets, on one of the links you gave, they had another link on making beckets.  In the discussion, they mentioned that normally only sailors on whaling ships would have had time to make beckets as commercial ships didn’t have many extra sailors besides what was necessary to man the ships, so they would not have had as much free time at sea.  They also noted that while Ships of War had more sailors than needed to sail the ship (to man the guns and do close in fighting), they kept them at “busy work” scraping/sanding the deck with “Holy Stones’ and other chores so they did not have much free time either.  The information seemed to suggest that most of the time, beckets were made for Ship Chandler’s shops or already attached to sea chests when sailor’s bought them.  So maybe putting beckets on the chest would not really be correct for a landlubbing Artificer’s Chest? 

Maybe, it would be more “correct” to use the rivets and roves on the cleats and just use long rope handles that are long enough to use a pole between them?

In the meanwhile, I will study more about beckets and thanks for your insight on them.  That is the kind of information that just can’t be found in books, only by folks who use or make them and I do very much appreciate it.  I may/probably will have more questions as I learn more.

Gus

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2013, 04:50:50 PM »
Your statements about fancy marlinspike beckets is pretty accurate from what I've gleaned. For a landsman's chest I'd stick with simple rope (hemp, please--more hand friendly and HC) grommets. Get your hands on one of the good books on marlinspike skills such as Hervey Garret Smith's or Brion Toss's or Clifford W. Ashley's and learn one or two shroud knots. Use these to make your grommets. They leave a sort of knob where the join is which I find appealing. You could long splice them for smoother grommets, but I've not been happy with my own long splices when appearance comes into play. Be careful though, knotwork can become an obcession, or it can just be a useful tool.

Shroud knot images:     

http://www.google.com/search?q=shroud+knots&client=safari&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=xtJKUqiKNeewyQH2mIC4Cw&ved=0CD8QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=672&dpr=1
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2013, 11:31:37 PM »
Kermit,

Your tip on using hemp rope for the handles is well received.  That is one thing I did actually know as I’ve had too many rope burns from Manila rope over the years at reenactments/living histories.  Grin.

1 do appreciate the tip on the shroud knots.  That is something I really did not understand about putting the rope handles on and forgot to mention.  Always wondered how they did those knots and shroud knots weren’t covered in my training of tying knots in Boy Scouts decades ago.

BTW, something kept bugging me on historic use of rivets and roves so I did a google search.  First thing that came up was a Viking Clinker built ship made using them.  Well, that was a DUH moment for me!  Should have remembered that.  Grin.

I want to thank you again for sharing your knowledge as it will be really useful for me in planning and building my chest/s.  Now I have to find some appropriate lumber.

Oh, have any ideas on a period portable knock down work bench?  I’m thinking of a modified trestle bench, but I will start a new thread on that.

Gus

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2013, 06:50:00 AM »
Start by searching and reading about "Roubo" workbenches. Lots of modern takes on them, but look to the historical info. If I'm on the same page vis a vis "trestle" benches, I don't think I would. Look for other leg/base solutions for portability.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

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Re: Tool Chests?
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2013, 07:04:19 PM »
Kermit,

Thanks for the suggestion on the "Roubo" workbenches, though I’m not sure how to scale them down to make then “knock down” and portable. 

I was thinking of using a trestle board construction with wide side legs and the top cleat of the each side would be formed into a tapered sliding dovetail.  Then nail/screw two boards under the bench top on each side of each leg’s cleat with half a dovetail to form the sliding dovetail.  That way it could be a “knock down” piece to take to reenactments and the bench top, legs, etc. would come apart.  Now I don’t know of any orginal made that way, but it would still be made using original technology and someone COULD have made one that way.   

This workbench would not be large and probably not more than 4 ft. long.  I will sit at it on a folding camp stool and work/repair mostly gun locks and leather repair at it.

Gus