Author Topic: recovered round ball  (Read 13201 times)

Offline Don Getz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6853
Re: recovered round ball
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2013, 04:37:05 PM »
Here's an interesting tale.    I shot a rather small doe with my 60 cal. Bob Harn rifle.   I was using a .590 ball ahead of 90 grains of FF.   I shot this deer at about 30 yards, just behind the shoulder and the ball did not go straight thru the deer.  I
hit the deer just where I was aiming but the ball came out the bottom of the chest cavity..   I think the ball must hit a curved
rib and it sent it downward, strange but true.........Don

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15573
Re: recovered round ball
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2013, 07:27:50 PM »
Sometimes indeed, balls do strange things as Don noted.  This is not restricted to round balls, indeed, elongated bullets are also culprits depending on what they hit.

My first moose with the 14 bore rifle was 95 yards distance. I shot through what looked like a sea of willow bush tips - first shot a pure lead ball - into his left side - sounded like "ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddWHOK". "The d's" emulating the ball hittting willows all the way to the moose.  At the WHOK, the moose's butt hit the ground, his back legs buckling, holding his head up and shaking his antlers back and forth - looked sick - very sick, but not down!  By the time I had the rifle loaded again,  (under 10 seconds - I practised with the ctgs.) this time with a WW ball from a paper ctg., but by then, he'd gained his feet and turned his right side to me.  BOOMdddddddWHOK- only hit a 1/2 dozen or so willows with that shot & down he went. 

The first shot - 165gr. 2F GOEX and 482gr. pure lead round ball hit not where I'd aimed, but 6" further forward, on the leg- about heart height - the ball smashed that leg into small chunks but then stopped in the leg and did not penetrate into the chest cavity - it was mangled. 

The second shot, also with 165gr. 2F GOEX, but with a WW ball of 466gr., hit right behind the right front leg where where aimed. The ball hit a rib going in, broke off a 6" piece and that drove across the lower lung lobes, slicing them like a knife and then stuck through the muscle between 2 ribs on the other side, the end poking against the hide there, the other end in the lung tissue. 

The ball went straight across the upper 1/2 of the lungs, making a 3" diameter permanent hole through the lungs, above the heart, smashing into the off side shoulder shattering it into little bits - about 6" above the first ball's flight path(which had entered form the other side). Even though that leg was already shattered by the first ball, he was not only standing on that leg and even took a couple steps when turning around to present his other side for the second shot.

Over the years and after reading some of the 50 to 80gr. charge theories, I've wondered 2 things about charges.  1/. what would that moose hunt's results have been with a 3 dram load instead of the 6 drams used, considering the willows and bone encountered.  2/.- I've wondered if the powder charges used on bit game in the tropics, India and Africa, were due to experience, or perhaps inexperience but a lot of theory on what it takes to kill large & sometimes dangerous game.

I know you can kill a moose with a .45 or .50 round ball and 80gr. 2F - I've seen both happen - but I'm quite sure neither of those would have made much of an impression on the moose above, considering the willows and bone involved.
 
That leg bone is just over 3" in diameter at the point of impact of the first shot - behind about 4" of muscle & only it went another 6 or 8inches before stopping altogether - yet it made that moose VERY sick - shocked to his core.  The second one actually smashed more bone, but on the off-side after going through a 1/2" thick rib & across the lungs, than the first one did on the impact side.  The first, of course, hit more wood and was of pure lead - and flattened  more.

That this moose needed 2 shots is evident from the postmortem inspection.  I would have probably lost that wounded moose if I had to wipe the @!*% bore before loading again.  Yeah - sometimes you need 2 shots (well, I sure did).  When that first ball hit all those willows  - I was surprised - I did not even see them in the sights - only the moose.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5291
  • Tennessee
Re: recovered round ball
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2013, 11:08:47 PM »
The single-most striking thing (yes pun) i get from your story Daryl is that you switched ball alloy right in the heat of "battle". 

Is this because that gun is not fussy like a smaller bore might be, or just a thing of circumstances?  Or normal GWN field testing with a very cooperative moose-swapping sides so you couldn't confuse the terminal ballistics upon autopsy.  ;D

I left a 490 ball in a whitetail a few years back, i was no good at reloading then-and I saw him go down like a sack of bricks.  But he got up and left and I lost his track (I used to bow hunt, and can follow a drip for miles).  Anyhoo, I saw him 2 years later but couldn't get a shot.  If i see him again...maybe i can find out what that first ball did/did not do.  He's pretty big now and has a hella limp. (and a non-typical/typical rack-no confusing him with the other ridge-runners).
Hold to the Wind

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4558
Re: recovered round ball
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2013, 02:38:54 AM »
I have been using  balls cast from wheel weights for bear and moose now for a couple of years.  I have 2 pieces of a pure lead .715 ball from my 10 bore that hit my deer last year, and then angled up into the spine .   He dropped like a stone, but I always wondered what would happen if I happened to hit a large bone when bear or moose hunting with a lead ball.
The WW just keeps going, and that is what I want.  One thing about moose; if you take out a leg, they usually stick around....at least that's been my experience.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15573
Re: recovered round ball
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2013, 05:43:53 PM »
All of my paper ctgs. had WW balls, whereas the first one loaded was pure.  The paper ctgs. shot the same groups sizes and hit exactly the same poi as the pure lead and cloth patches.  Whether this happens in other 'bores' I do not know. I suspect it's part and parcel of the large bores being easier to work with, recoil aside, of course.  The larger the ball, the less it is effected by small changes. 

For instance, 165gr. hits the same poi at 200yards with patched pure .684" lead ball, as it does with a .677" (15 bore)WW ball, which is considerably lighter and .007" smaller in diameter. I use the same patch material for both balls - 12 ounce denim.  I measure it at .025" with the mic and .029/.030" with the calipers, squeezed as hard as I can on the jaws, forefinger and thumb.

In the large bores a slightly smaller WW ball ensures deep penetration.  The reason I use a slightly smaller diameter for the hard ball is that it is easier loading with a thick patch, than is a larger WW ball with a thinner patch (that has a tendency to tear from the hard lead).
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

FRJ

  • Guest
Re: recovered round ball
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2013, 04:01:45 PM »
A simple thought: An increase of a charge by 10gr will have a lower percentage each time it is added to a charge. In other words a 10gr increase over a 10gr charge would be a 100% increase in powder charge but a 10gr increase over a 100gr charge would be only a 10% increase over a 100gr charge. Thus the more you increase the charge in any given rifle the smaller the velocity increase would be simply because the percentage of fuel increase is less each time it is upped. FRJ

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9879
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: recovered round ball
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2013, 06:45:31 PM »
To touch on a few comments, first off the load was worked up on a chronograph, 5 grain increases till the velocity gains (1930 fps sd 14.7 fps) were not of any significance. Accuracy was maintained and the goal was a heavy load for heavier game then deer.  I too was surprised to find the ball and knew it might be of interest to some and expected some to have opinions on it.
Wade, I'm not offended by strangers on the internet or run off by a bit of sport at my expense.  It may take a while to respond as I don't spend a lot of time at the computer.

I am surprised it took that much powder to get the velocity. I would bet that at about 120 grains the velocity gains started to really fall off.
Anything over 1700-1750 will give flat enough trajectory for hunting in 50-58 calibers. Trying to increase a RBs killing power by velocity is sometimes counter productive. If the striking velocity is high and a large bone is struck, such as the upper leg bone of an elk, penetration may be inadequate if the range is short. Modern firearms run into the same thing I have seen 300 Weatherby 180 factory bullets fail to penetrate more than 4-5" in an elk due to too much velocity and striking not that substantial a bone. So solid copper bullets are popular for such cartridges. At 200 yards or more I am sure the 300 would have passed through but at 40? Its not a load I would want in AK in an Alder patch with a bear in it.
I have a 16 bore rifle and for shooting something like a large bear I would use harder lead like W-W alloy. So while high velocity may increase killing power on game at the smaller end of the scale, antelope and deer, it may reduce killing power on larger game in some situations with a pure lead ball.
I would point out that John Taylor killed a number of African Elephant with a 167 gr in a 10 bore and Forsythe used 137 gr in a 14 bore (69 caliber) for Indian Elephant and other large game. I have no idea what Taylor's velocity was but the trajectory tables Forsythe developed give about 1600 fps when run through a ballistics program I had years ago.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine