Author Topic: Ramrod thimble forming tool  (Read 10809 times)

lazyace

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Ramrod thimble forming tool
« on: November 04, 2013, 01:40:10 AM »
Some time ago, I saw on the web or in a catalog, a jig for forming ramrod thimbles.  Cannot remember where exactly I saw it.  Does anyone know where I might find the item and purchase one?  Track, MBS, Dixie, and Log Cabin where all blanks.

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2013, 01:45:25 AM »
Knob mountain muzzleloader supply. I've got them, and they are great.
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lazyace

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2013, 02:03:41 AM »
Thanks!  Found it, finally!  Trying to build a "Verner" style rifle  -  non-standard entry pipe, which no-one makes, so, must fabricate my own.  Jig is a big help!

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2013, 04:33:59 PM »
Jay Close wrote a number of articles in Muzzle Blasts detailing many steps in making  a rifle.
One on rod pipes was in March 1979 and i think the entry pipe conclusion was in April.
Well worth any trouble it takes to find them.

Dan
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 04:35:58 PM by Dphariss »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2013, 04:38:03 PM »
Thanks!  Found it, finally!  Trying to build a "Verner" style rifle  -  non-standard entry pipe, which no-one makes, so, must fabricate my own.  Jig is a big help!

None of the formed rod pipes I see for sale are decent quality compared to what can be shop made. I do buy some of the cast steel entrys for some applications.

Dan
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2013, 05:38:59 PM »
When I look at hand made guns, one of the big details is the pipes, how they were made, how they fit with the gun. Production pipes stick out like a sore thumb. Not that there is anything intrinsically wrong with them, but I've seen them hundreds of times. The handmade pipe is worth doing if you're developing your own style.
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

whetrock

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2013, 06:42:59 PM »
Yeah, I feel the same as Acer.
Even with handmade hardware, I think the process and technology used makes a big difference. I'm pretty much a traditionalist, so I enjoy the old technology and tend to think of small irregularities as appropriate; they give the piece the right feel. I prefer a hand-filed pipe to one filed with a jig that makes every angle and intersection "perfect". (But of course we all have our preferences.)

Here's a photo of a few in process, obviously for fairly simple iron mounted guns. All the work shown up-to-this-point on the one in front was done with a hammer and punches. In this photo it has not yet been filed. (I did use forming mandrels--mild steel rods--but not a standard size one-piece forming tool. I use different size mandrels depending on how I want the pipe to look.)  I don't mean to imply that this is "how to do it"; it's just how I do it.



« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 07:25:33 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline Hawken62_flint

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2013, 08:39:57 PM »
Just finished a couple of pipes on Sunday--my first try, but I wanted the pipes to be about 2 inches in length and am doing this rifle for myself on the cheap.  One of the books I saw said to use .040 sheet brass, but what I had was .050.  I annealed it, follwing Buchele and Shumway's advice and then used a drill bit as a mandrel and my mighty ballpeen hammer and vise.  When done, I soldered them from the inside, letting the solder flow down the seam.  Then they were dressed up and I hand filed the flats on them.  I am guite pleased with them and I now know that I can make them instead of buying them.  I have yet to tackle the entry thimble, but there won't be one on this rifle, so for now I am good to go. 

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2013, 08:58:57 PM »
The thickest I use is .025 for forming thimbles. Many original tubes are formed from very very thin brass sheet. Maybe .015? The raised bead around the edge gives tremendous strength and stiffness.

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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 05:02:40 AM »
I use around .040" for anything (brass or steel) that I am going to file flats on.   I will used 22ga steel for simple round thimbles.   

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 06:05:55 PM »
The thickest I use is .025 for forming thimbles. Many original tubes are formed from very very thin brass sheet. Maybe .015? The raised bead around the edge gives tremendous strength and stiffness.



Fall on one of these while out hunting and its far more likely to crush and jam the rod. A heavy rifle like my match rifle will mash one with very little movement. A 4-5" drop to a hard surface will seriously deform the buttplate for example. Don't ask how I found this out ::)
I also find thinner brass is harder to work and look good. If too thick its harder to form the rings and they may look more sharp edged than rounded if the die is not made to allow for it. So there are trade offs. As with everything.

Dan
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 07:25:23 PM »
Just sayin' I have seen more originals with 'wafer-thin' brass than with thick.


I agree, a good bump, and the thimble is crushed. You see evidence of this, too. Also pipes that are torn from the ramrod being jammed back into the pipe, and missed the mark.


I should have been clearer, I'm referring to fowlers and PA rifes. Plains rifles may be a different animal entirely.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 07:25:41 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 08:17:32 PM »
Acer, in Alexander's book he talks about the possibility of some of the old makers planishing the flats on their RR pipes. If they did planish them, the work hardening may have made the thin walled pipes a little harder and more durable. What do you think?
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whetrock

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 08:20:45 PM »
Here's a photo of a TN rifle.  In addition to just seeing the quality of the work, I found it helpful to see this pipe for a few other reasons as well.

At first glance when seeing the thing in real life, it looked "wafer-thin", (to borrow Acer's apt description).
Then when looked at under magnification, it seemed evident that the thing had to have been filed from reasonably thick material. Otherwise there simply would not have been enough material for such deep "grooves" in the fluted section.
And then there is the problem of the damaged edge. By filing the edge to a delicate "wafer-thin" dimension (and thus creating something of an optical illusion) the smith may have made it too fragile. As Dan P points out, an overly thin pipe collapses and jams or cuts into the rod. (Maybe a slightly heavier beaded edge would have been a better choice, since a bead would have given strength to the edge?)



I try to make my iron mounted stuff out of scrap when I can. But sometimes I buy hardware grade "welding steel" sheet.  It might be helpful to guys to know that the actual dimensions of hardware grade 16 ga sheet varies quite a bit. I've found it to vary from .043-.058. The 22 ga has been more consistent, usually .025. That doesn’t mean you need to pay big money for exact dimension material. But you do want to pay attention to what you are buying, pick through the pile, and buy material according to how you want to use it.

If you are banging the stuff out of scrap or have to work with material that is heavier than you really wanted, then just pretend that you are a smith of old and make due. Hammer it thinner (use hear protection!), or be prepared to file the final product down to the thin profile you want. The point isn’t really how thick of material you start with. Rather, it’s how thick you leave it! And when studying old pieces, keep in mind that there are optical illusions in the artwork. It is supposed to look thin in the final product, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be made so thin as to be fragile.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 06:31:49 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2013, 09:37:58 PM »
I've planished flats on really thin pipes, then a little filing to crisp them up.

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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2013, 12:23:28 AM »
On trade guns the ribs on the thimbles are there to offer some strength from crushing and deforming as they are made of super thin brass and then the tabs are folded over in the barrel channel.
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whetrock

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2013, 01:15:57 AM »
You've mentioned an important contrast, Rich.
On some pipes made of very thin material, the “ribs” (rings, beads, etc.) are formed/were formed by a die that presses them into shape. (Dan mentioned this earlier, as well.)

For guys unfamiliar with this, here’s a link to show what this means:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/827/1/RP-NW-F-6-B

As the explanation there says, “Notice the impressed rings, forged into the thin brass pipes. These corrugations or embossed rings give the thin brass pipes extra strength, so they cannot be crushed in the field.”

In contrast, in using thicker material and a different technique, whether iron or brass, the beads are often created by having the material around them filed away.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 01:16:30 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2013, 01:52:08 AM »
Ha! "Waffer thin" ....reminds me of one of my favorite Python movies. ;D
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Offline flehto

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2013, 09:59:33 PM »
My forward RR pipes  are made from .032 brass sheet, but the Bucks County  entry pipes are from .040 brass sheet for the long finial , but the pipe is still made from .032 thick brass. If the BC entry pipe is one piece { still deciding  which is easier...so far the 2 piece is winning}, then .040 brass is used. Below are the form blocks  which work for either 1 0r 2 piece BC entry pipes. Also  pics of a BC entry pipe made in the oak forms which is 2 pieces. If the 2 piece is used, high temp silver solder is used for joining the finial w/ the pipe and for closing the pipe because  addt'l annealing  might be req'd. I added addt'l length  to the form....my first BC entry pipes  were too short. In reference to another post, the so called "lift" on these BC entry pipes is .040...the thickness of the brass sheet.....Fred

 




« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 04:06:58 AM by flehto »

Offline bgf

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2013, 10:58:21 PM »
Flehto,
The thought of inletting an entry pipe like that will give me shivers for a while to come -- I have trouble enough with "normal" ones :)!  I like that form though -- bet you could make a very useful tutorial based around that (hint, hint).  I have made a few entry pipes with no form, but I think one based on your design would be well worth making.

whetrock

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2013, 12:36:16 AM »
Just want to insert this link to another discussion (currently ongoing), which is also about forming entry pipes. I imagine it will be helpful to have them tie together (for future readers).

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28550.0

Several helpful photos of forming dies, etc., in that thread.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 12:36:59 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Ramrod thimble forming tool
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2013, 02:38:55 AM »
On trade guns the ribs on the thimbles are there to offer some strength from crushing and deforming as they are made of super thin brass and then the tabs are folded over in the barrel channel.

The formed profile of trade gun pipes may add strength, but I'm not sure I would go as far as to say that's why they are there.  The emulate to some degree solid bulbous pipes found on more sophisticated work.  That's by in large the story of trade gun design.  A simplified and somewhat modified  version of more academic work.   Another great example is the serpent side plate.  Fully formed versions of this was cutting edge fashion in Paris during the 1660's and use was initiated by the trend setting gunsmiths.  It's interesting how long it stuck on the trade guns.