English shotgun lock (stud in place of forward lock nail)

[whetrock]

On another thread, Chris Treichel posted the following link to a photo of a fine English shotgun.  You will see that his photo shows the “stud” which works in place of a forward lock nail. (But his photo does not show the lock.)
http://www.gunsinternational.com/popup.cfm?id=100348554&num=2&pic=100201521-2-L.jpg

Now here is a photo of a lock (from  http://www.drake.net/products/Beckwith-London--14-Bore-Single-Barrel-Sporting-Gun-ca.-1810?id=28546 )[I already know that the link no longer works], from another fine English shotgun (signed William Beckwith) of about the same period. This photo shows the internals for a lock of the type used on such shotguns, and on the photo you can clearly see the corresponding stud on the lock.



Okay, can somebody tell me about these studs. How is the one mounted in the stock? How is the other attached to the lock? How are the two fitted together? (That is, how do you get them both installed so that the lock is fitted properly in place? The lock clearly tips in and out of the mortise, much like a tip out barrel, but I’m really curious about how you build this thing.)

Also, I’d like to know more about this Beckwith lock. Can someome tell me about the notches and the fly. The notches are not visible in the photo, and I haven’t yet found on the web any photos of a similar lock that would help explain their arrangement.

Not planning to build one of these any time soon, but eager to learn

(If you really like these shotguns, then see this one:
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/view_lot_info.asp?lot=2330-327 )

[Feltwad]

Most types of fastening the  fore part of a sporting flintlock to the stock with this type is is just a plain wood type of screw with the head left protruding so the hook would engage the screw head. Some were fitted with a fly mostly sporting rifles but most single barrel game or sporting guns were just a half and full cock on the tumbler.
Enclosed are images of a lock of L Harrison of Carlisle UK with this type
Feltwad

[westbj2]

These hooks are found on the front of bar action locks and on the rear of some back action locks.  The hook is integral with the lockplate and has as light front to rear draft on the inside of the hook.  This draft angle draws against the screw head in the stock and bottoms out the lock plate properly as it is slid forward while mounting the lock.  The radius on the front of the hook corresponds to the diameter or radius of the mounting screw shank it mates with.  Also, the lock plate is relieved or thinned a bit forward of the hook to better accommodate the plate when it is placed in the mortise.
I suppose you could retro fit a stud to a conventional lock using a square stud thru the plate and pein it into a counter sink on the outside of the lock.
Placement of the screw is critical to the proper function of the arrangement.  Safest way to place the screw is to make a template of the front portion of the lock with a drill bushing located on the outside of the template which corresponds to the location of the hook.  You want the screw head initially
  to be slightly larger and thicker than its mating hook, when finally fitting the screw head and the hook I have found that slightly changing the diameter of the head and or its thickness in the lathe works well.

The tumbler notches will be quite conventional.  Notice the "bump" or irregularity in picture near where the bridal crosses the sear.  The tumbler has been relieved in thicknes by about .030" or so everywhere except around the area where the notches are cut.  The lock illustrated does not have a fly.
Jim

[Bob Roller]

Whetrock,
This is the kind of lock work that got me interested in making locks to begin with.This type of mechanism does take some experience to make and in today's money,it would be costly and back in "The Day",it was an expensive proposition to get one made.That tumbler shows a reinforced area for the half cock,full cock and fly to work in. I have a left hand caplock of similar construction with a broken bridle and it's marked "Wiggins".
A lot of these very high grade locks were made by lock filers that made them for gunmakers and the inside of the plates were frequently marked with the lock makers name and the name on the outside of the plate was the gunmakers. On the European Continent,these fine locks were frequently made by watch makers in an off time when they weren't making watches or repairing them. Some fine single set triggers were made in the French speaking section of Switzerland and you can see the skill of the watchmaker in them.
Personally,I find the workmanship of locks used on American guns of that time frame to be disgusting when I see these fine English and European locks and I suppose it all goes back to cost and utility over art.

Bob Roller

[Chris Treichel]

http://www.gunsinternational.com/popup.cfm?id=100348554&num=4&pic=100201521-4-L.jpg Here is a picture of the lock from the one I origionally posted. 

here is the auction it is related to... http://www.gunsinternational.com/Samuel-Charles-Smith-London-Best-13-bore-single-barrel-flintlock-game-gun-made-in-1846.cfm?gun_id=100348554

[Jerry V Lape]

I have not done this but I think you could fasten the stud to the lockplate with a threaded blind or through hole in the lockplate and time it's position to the correct rotation with judicious filing from the back side of the stud itself.  I would probably then solder it to prevent any movement in the threads. 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Jerry, that is how I did it. thread it through the lock plate from the inside then bend the internal flat over to line up with the screw or staple you will hook it behind. Not so difficult.

[KLMoors]

Yup, on that "Twigg" I just did, I did a hook similar to that. It catches on a wood screw in the mortise. It took a couple of hours to make it, install it, and break it, the first time. Second one took about twenty minutes and fit very well. 

I used a piece of #10 screw to make the hook.

[whetrock]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate your taking time to teach!

Thanks for the additional link, Chris.

So the photo Chris posted showed a "screw" that had been filed down so as to have a narrow, stud-like head. That's how I interpret it, based on what you guys have said. I assume it is then turned in with a pair of pliars, or more likely a small made-for-purpose wrench. Might there be a structural advantage to that design? I just wonder if it might be less vulernable to breakage than a simple screw. But then again that might be overkill.

KLMoors, so what part broke? Any advice, based on that experience?

Bob, Any advice about putting a fly in this kind of lock? Seems like if it is mounted in a shotgun, it might not be necessary.

Whet

[KLMoors]

Whet, I used a #10 lock bolt screw.  I had flattened down the section without threads and bent/filed it into the hook. I got it real close to right, but it was getting too thin. I tried one last bend, and broke the tab off of it. 

The next one only took a few minutes to make. I cut it to approximate length, heated the smooth section red hot, and played blacksmith until I had a good, big blob on the end. Once I had plenty of metal to work with, it was easy to file it to shape.

I made mine with a single tongue on it, and this passes along side the screw and hooks under the head of the wood screw. But, I like the idea of the "Y" shaped tongue to hook on both sides of the screw, and under the head.

You do need to plan carefully so your screw stays in the web of wood between the barrel and ramrod hole. Not much wood there if you don't hit the web.

The cool thing about using a wood screw to hold it in, is that you can turn it down a bit at a time until it is just right.

 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Good stuff ken!!

[whetrock]

Thanks, Ken. Very helpful.

Feltwad, I meant to say earlier that I really appreciate the photos!  Really cool of you to make these photos and get them up here in answer to my questions.

Jim, I appreciate the suggestion of the template with the drill bushing. Very helpful.

Whet