Author Topic: Lock repair advice  (Read 7512 times)

Offline Paddlefoot

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Lock repair advice
« on: November 22, 2013, 06:45:55 PM »
I have an old Russ Hamm flintlock that has developed a bit of slop on the plate side of the tumbler. I was thinking this might be a good reason to learn how to make a replacement tumbler. Would 0-1 drill rod be a good material to use or is there something better?
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2013, 06:59:27 PM »
 There is a good chance the slop isn't the fault of the tumbler. the tumbler is almost always harder than the plate. So, the hole the tumbler fits through, becomes enlarged over time. Check the contact point on the tumbler, where it goes through the plate, for roundness. If its out of round the ware is on the tumbler. If the hole in the plate is out of round the ware is in the plate.

                  Hungry Horse

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2013, 07:12:59 PM »
A bushing can be fit to the plate and then reamed for a good fit on the tumbler.
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2013, 08:26:55 PM »
Acer is right.  Just order a bronze bushing with and ID a little smaller than your tumbler axle along with a spiral reamer the size of the axle.   Then it is just a matter of drilling out the hole in the plate with the drill corresponding to the OD of the bushing.   The actual size of the bushing is always .002" larger than the stated size for a press fit.    Once the hole is drilled,  you press in the bushing.  I usually do this from the inside of the plate.   Then you just have to cut the bushing off flush with a jewelers saw or a hacksaw with a fine tooth blade.   Next,  you file bushing flush with the plate and polish with sand paper to 600 grit.   The last step is carefully reaming the hole in the bushing so that the tumbler axle will just go in.   The reaming should be done in a drill press with the lock plate held perfectly perpendicular to the reamer.    You must do this slowly and check the fit often.   Still, it should only take a few mintues.   The whole process takes me less than an hour and I am slow.   If the bridle hole needs work,   I  fill the hole with an oversize steel screw, usually 8-32, cut it off flush and peen in place.   Then you just have to re-drill and ream.   Make sure that the tumbler axles are polished with a stone before you do any of the above.  It might help to chuck the tumbler in lathe or drill press to do this.  

« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 05:59:01 AM by Acer Saccharum »

Whaleman

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2013, 09:33:03 PM »
Mark, Where do you order your bushings? Any special type of bronze? Thank You Dan

Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2013, 09:48:43 PM »
I suppose the bushing would stop the tumbler from cocking and dragging on the lock plate too. The tumbler doesn't appear to have a bearing shoulder left on it next to the shaft. The bridle-shaft fit seems to reasonably good. I'll dig out the mics and see which is in the worst condition.
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2013, 10:46:09 PM »
....... The tumbler doesn't appear to have a bearing shoulder left on it next to the shaft. .......

I installed a tumbler bushing in a Siler and left the bushing a tiny bit proud on the inside of the lockplate to create a bearing shoulder.

-Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2013, 10:51:41 PM »
I make tumblers from 1144 stressproof.It machines like 12L14 and oil harden like 0-1.

Bob Roller

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2013, 03:04:47 AM »
Get my bushings, reamers, etc..... from MSC.

Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2013, 04:47:47 AM »
Thank you all for the great info.
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

wet willy

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2013, 07:35:43 PM »
Acer & Mark Elliot are right on the mark for a fix on a sloppy tumbler ... the problem is almost always with the lock plate, not the tumbler.

FWIW, clock makers for hundred of years use bushings to correct a plate where the pivot (the axle or shaft) has worn the hole to an egg shape, adding to friction and stopping the works. The trick is to find the center of an egg-shaped hole. Likely this is not of much importance with a lock. Mount the plate in a vise and let the drill find the center. This is NOT a job for a hand-held drill!

The lock plate's tumbler hole goes egg-shaped due to the constant pressure of the main spring, which pushes the tumbler axle downwards. Each time you cycle the lock when firing, the tumbler grinds away at the lock plate. I've not examined many old locks, but I suspect bushings were used often.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2013, 08:38:33 PM »
If tumbler and bridle holes aren't reasonably centered on each other, the lock will have frictional losses, due binding of tumbler and/or sear.

It's really hard to move a hole using a drill press. The tools want to follow an exiting hole. If that hole is off-center, so too will the new hole be.


One can file the worn hole closer to the desired center, and a reamer will true up the hole. Then enlarge with proper drill and reamers to fit yer bushing. As Bob Roller mentions, the bushing doesn't have to be bronze. If you have a lathe, you're a lucky man.


Gotta love this stuff! Tools, metals, guns, beer, wood.
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

whetrock

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2013, 12:34:28 AM »
You can enlarge the hole (drill it or file it as you prefer) then fill the hole with a solid plug, steel or bronze (rather than a pre-drilled bushing).  Solder if you want, or champher edges of hole and peen in tightly if you prefer. Plug just needs to be big enough to have sufficient solid material around the new hole, and small enough to stay hidden under the cock. Non-round shapes (eg. square) will guarantee plug won't spin in hole during drilling.
Then mount the plate face down on a squared chunk of hardwood, mount the hardwood in the drillpress vise, etc., then screw on the bridle, drill a pilot hole by putting the drill through the small axle hole on the bridle. When pilot hole is complete, then remove the bridle and switch to a large drill to cut the large axle hole to size (or to slightly undersize if you want to ream to final dimension). Helpful if you use a large drill with a non-cutting pilot center, same size as the pilot hole. That guarantees that the large hole doesn't wander.
Back in the day, we can assume that the pilot hole would have been cut with a small straight-shanked spade bit. Such a bit won't cut the bridle laterally as you drill the pilot.

Lathe tools and drill-press type tools are shown in the Wyke's catalogue (printed from 1759-1770) which could have been used to accomplish such drilling 200 years ago. Most of those tools were operated by a bow drill or a brace. If you want to use a modern hand drill, rather than a drill press, then you may want to build a simple hardwood squaring jig to help you keep everything square. Hardwood squaring jig will also work with bow drill and or brace. Non-cutting pilot on the large drill will help considerably if you are going to do this with a hand tool.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 12:49:39 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2013, 12:48:27 AM »
Good advice about the solid plug, whetrock.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2013, 03:59:14 AM »
I see the case hardened lockplates here from time to time. Was this hardening common on Mid 18th century locks?
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2013, 04:44:12 AM »
Another related question. What does everyone use for lube on these old mechanisms. Recently I have been using a mixture of 50-50 non detergent Kendall 30 wt motor oil and STP with a dab of EP grease dissolved in it. This seems to work great on autoloader slides and locking lugs.
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2013, 04:53:30 AM »
Certainly all better quality lockplates were casehardened. The plates were iron, which is soft by nature. Once casehardened, the plate becomes very durable, rust resistant, and friction of operation is reduced.

Our modern lock plates are cast steel, and are harder than iron. You don't need to caseharden them, but doing so improves performance.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

whetrock

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2013, 07:38:07 AM »

Paddlefoot,
I was just working on a lock a minute ago and it hit me that something might not have been obvious. That is, if you go with the solid plug option I described above, when installing the bridle as guide for drilling a pilot hole, be sure to screw in the screw(s) at the top of the bridle and also the sear screw. That will help ensure that the bridle is aligned properly.

Whatever approach you take, I hope it works out well!
Whetrock

Offline Paddlefoot

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2013, 08:15:30 AM »
If you are building a lock from one of the gunsmith kits with the large plate that you shape to your style needs. What alloy is the plate? Its not a large flat casting is it? Just something I've been thinking on for a later gun.
Thank you all for the detailed answers and information.
The nation that makes great distinction between it's warriors and it's scholars will have it's thinking done by cowards and it's fighting done by fools. King Leonidas of Sparta

whetrock

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2013, 03:32:22 PM »
I think you are talking about the “Gunmaker’s Flintlock”, by Chambers. This link, then scroll to the bottom: http://www.flintlocks.com/locks6.htm

If you want to talk with Barbie Chambers about those locks, you can find her on here as “Blackpowder Barbie". Her email address is in her bio on here, if you want to send her a direct email.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 03:34:58 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

blaksmth

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2013, 08:13:21 AM »
I don't know where my dad came up with them but he has two drawers full of blank tumblers that we have used for years when building up a lock or fixing a junk one up we cut the notches where needed then harden them when done . He has had them for I know 40 yrs or more

Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2013, 04:59:10 PM »
Hi guys - I have an old " Russ Hamm " flint lock  - It is a give away to the first person  who wants It. It is disassembled and I think only  few screws are missing. Also it was not used very much. Just pay the shipping ( $5) and it's yours.   Hugh Toenjes
hjt65@hotmail.com
H.T.

Offline Tom Cooper

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2013, 07:14:27 PM »
Hugh,

I sent you an e-mail on that lock.
Tom

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Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2013, 07:26:42 PM »
Guys The "Russ Hamm " lock is gone but thanks for looking.   Hugh Toenjes
H.T.

whetrock

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Re: Lock repair advice
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2013, 05:47:20 AM »

Was reading old posts and came across a very nice welding fix by Dan Phariss for a similar problem.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10300.msg97396#msg97396