Hawken WO entry thimble?

[blaksmth]

Hi, has any one seen a Hawken rifle built without an entry thimble and just a cast nose cap?

I think I saw a rifle of smaller caliber in Bairds book with one but don't remember for sure I am building a rifle for my son in law and am just thinking of just casting a nosecap like other  plains rifles . But wondered if  Jake or Sam Hawken built any rifles like this?

[galamb]

Yes, I'm going through my piles of files/pics right now to try and find it (have a decent close up pic), just can't put my finger (mouse) on it at the moment..

[galamb]

There, found it hiding..

It is a S Hawken. Sorry, have no specs on it but here's a couple of pics...

[oakridge]

I don't know the caliber of the Hawken pictured, but a fore end cap like that is usually found on the smaller caliber sporting or squirrel rifles. Most of these are single-keyed, with a spur on the trigger guard. The larger caliber Hawken plains rifles are double-keyed, have a scroll guard without a spur, and DO have an entry pipe. I'm sure there are exceptions.

[galamb]

Yes, there is couple of examples that the Hawken shop used to have displayed that were of the same style (single key, no entry thimble).

The trigger guard was more (typical) but included the spur at the rear of the bow (unlike the pictured example which looks a little Ohio'ish) - Track of the Wolf sells one that looks quite close in design to those found on the rifles that were both built for a Mr. Bergner .

One was a 38 cal and the other a 40 cal having barrel lengths of 38 1/4" and 39" respectively.

[blaksmth]

I didn't want to be sacrilegious  so there could have been other rifles made like that that may not have survived I guess

[galamb]

And either of the two smaller calibers I mentioned above could have been bored out to a larger caliber later in life.

I say build it how you like unless you are trying to mimic a specific rifle...

[albert]

I have a picture of a smaller cal," Missouri Hawken" rifle that i took at an aquaintents of mine that looks just like the one that you put on here,and if memory serves me right there is one in the new NRA gun museum in Bass Pro in Springfield Mo.

[Mike L]

I have a J.P. Gemmer 45 cal. rifle, double keyed, scroll guard with a nose cap, no entry pipe. Gemmer worked for then bought the Hawken shop. I have seen small caliber marked Hawkens with nose cap only.

[Don Stith]

 In St Louis those are known as "local guns" or rifles built for the local trade as opposed to Plains rifles. Typically brass mounted and small caliber . I have seen many of them in 38 cal.  Usually with short bar set triggers.   Like anything else you will find exceptions that are iron mounted and bigger caliber. At lest three different trigger guard variations used.

[blaksmth]

Don, Do you mean rifles built by other makers or in the Hawken shop for local trade.?

[Dphariss]

Hi, has any one seen a Hawken rifle built without an entry thimble and just a cast nose cap?

I think I saw a rifle of smaller caliber in Bairds book with one but don't remember for sure I am building a rifle for my son in law and am just thinking of just casting a nosecap like other  plains rifles . But wondered if  Jake or Sam Hawken built any rifles like this?

The local rifles, for use in the area by local inhabitants are not the same as the "Plains/Mountain rifles" we all think of as "Hawken" rifles. They were better quality guns than the typical "squirrel rifle" but not "Plains Rifles".
I think you will look pretty hard to find one of the later with no entry pipe.
Could be out there, but certainly not typical.

Dan

[Don Stith]

Don, Do you mean rifles built by other makers or in the Hawken shop for local trade.?

They were made by and signed S Hawken St Louis. Same stamp as the later plains rifles. Gemmer made some of the same style rifles when he took over the shop. I have one by Hawken and one by Gemmer. Both are 38 caliber. Hate to admit it but I used the Gemmer in a match in St. Louis area once just to torment the fellows.
 One little oddity that some of you might enjoy.  Some of these Squirrel rifles, or local guns used hardware store locks that were precut for a drum. Then a piece was dovetailed in the plate to fill the drum notch and refiled to fit the patent breech. Generally they were not hooked breech, but patent breech with a short fixed tang
 Incidentally Some of the Gemmer versions of Plains Rifles used a pewter nose cap/entry configuration too

[Herb]

Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, volume III" shows 5 S.Hawken "sporting rifles" with poured pewter nose caps and no entry pipe. It also has photos of plains rifles by 15 other makers with pewter nose caps and no entry pipe.  Twenty of these have one key and 12 have two keys.

[blaksmth]

well I have got stock carved down and will probably pour a nose cap this week I will have to look for Jim Gordons bookand get it for my collection . many thanks to all for thier input.

I am hoping this rifle should really surprise my Son in law, he dosnt have a clue That he is getting a rifle for Christmas.
I hope to get some pics and post them ,if I can figure out how to do it.

I made the butt plate and trigger guard and all iron fixtures, but bought the lock,breech and triggers, had GR Douglas .54 XX bbl,for years all other parts hand made.
Its been about 12 years since I have built a front stuffer and have had to scratch my head a few times

[Herb]

In John Baird's book "Fifteen Years In the Hawken Lode" there are photos on page 61 of two J&S Hawken rifles with cast nose piece and no entry pipe, Ike Bay holding his rifle.  Each has one key. On page 60 is a drawing of Ike Bay's rifle, which has no underrib and no cheek piece.  Rod Pipes are keyed into the barrel.  Baird speculates that it could be a rebuild by Gemmer, but it might have been made by the Hawkens and is "unquestionably genuine".  I know nothing further about this rifle or the other pictured there that has a big cast nose cap and no entry pipe.  These seem to be big-bore mountain rifles.  (I repaired a .58 Hawken caplock that Ike Bay built and worked up some loads for it for a Utah elk hunter).

[blaksmth]

 Thank you Herb well I got a pretty good nose cap cast Monday night and it don't look real bad so I guess that's what its gonna get