riviting underribs

[whitebear]

I have seen references to riveting underribs.  Do you just drill a straight hole to put the rivet in or do you drill a straight hole and then drill at an angle to make the bottom of the hole slightly wider than the top?  Also what do you use for a rivet, copper wire?

[Chunker119]

I take two drill bits of the same size. One left alone and the other ground flat. First drill w/ reg. bit than flush up hole with flat bit. For rivets I use nails. The head is perfect for riveting.

[Dave B]

I drill and tap the barrel for the use of threaded nail sections that get run in snug then the rib riveted in place. Here is an example of an original that was done this way.

[Acer Saccharum]

Dave, I guess you'd say that there muzzle has been cut back. What a great illustration.

T

[E.vonAschwege]

Dave, that's a great shot of a rivet!  As I understand it from talking with Don Stith, that's the way original Hawken underribs were installed.  It's funny that the person who cut that barrel couldn't do so just 3/16" further up. 
-Eric

[Acer Saccharum]

The person who cut the barrel didn't think about how the rib might be attached. It's all one piece, right?

[Sawatis]

I drill and tap the barrel for the use of threaded nail sections that get run in snug then the rib riveted in place. Here is an example of an original that was done this way.

OK Maybe this is a weird question, but if you are already drilling and threading the hole and the rivet...why not just make it a screw?  Is there an advantage to the threaded rivet over a screw...just curious!
John

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Screws have a head that is unsightly.  A riveted screw is hardly noticeable.  If the 'smith used screws, someone sometime is going to take them out, switch them around, bugger the slots, lose one and replace it with a mismatch of worse, etc.  The rivet is a one time thing, and is permanent.

[Acer Saccharum]

...and one can file the head to conform to the groove. If you had a solid rib, you could do counterbored fillister head screws, but this heah rib is a hollow sheet metal one, and no screwhead I can think of will work without breaking out somewhere and leave an unsightly gap.

[Pete G.]

I use a rivet made from a 6p finishing nail. The head is set in the hole and then the barrel metal is upset around the edges to hold the nail in place. Once the rib is drilled and countersunk the rivets hardly show. I believe that this method is better than a screw in both strength and appearace and it relieves the builder of having to tap a blind hole, which I absolutely HATE doing.

[Herb]

Hey, Pete, what an idea!  I make my underllug loops out of bent nails and stake them in place, but I never thought to do that with the rivets!  I have drilled and tapped the holes for 8x40 threads and then made the rivets from a large nail, which is just the correct size, by cutting threads on it.  Then when that is screwed in and poked through the rib with a lightly countersunk hole, I gently peen the end of the nail into the countersink and file it to the rib contour.  But it will be a lot easier to gently stake the rivet in place without having to blind tap a hole.  I'll do that on my next Hawken!

[Herb]

Here is Jim Bridger's Hawken in the museum at Helena, MT.  That is a large head rivet.

[d-a]

Here is Jim Bridger's Hawken in the museum at Helena, MT.  That is a large head rivet.

Herb

Looks like the under rib is just shy of the end of the barrel. Have you noticed that in other original hawken that you've seen? Also you wouldn't have a picture of the Bridger hawken similar to the one Daveb posted above would you.

Thanks
Doug

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Do you mean a muzzle shot, or one where the barrel has been severed?

[WaterFowl]

Herb... looks like bigger is better..The American Way!
with 1/2 ram rod they still fit in.
any chance those could be screws filed flush?

[Dphariss]

I would rather file the screws. Less stress on the barrel and even the rivet will need filing to clean up anyway.

Dan

[d-a]

Do you mean a muzzle shot, or one where the barrel has been severed?

A muzzle shot would be nice. I'm just wondering why I never noticed the under rib was just shy of the muzzle in all my research. Herb's picture of the Bridger gun is the first I've seen of it.

Now I can assume with the hollow under rib why all the originals have the silver solder on the end of the under rib.

Thanks
Doug

[Herb]

Here is Jim Bridger's rifle.  The silver sight was broken off in use.  I do not know if this is the original ramrod, but it is the one GRRW measured when they had the rifle in 1975.  It is tapered and too short for the barrel.

Muzzle of Jim Bridger's rifle.  Note the sharp crown.  The rifling and grooves are relieved as shown in the next Hawken below.

Another Hawken in the Montana Historical Society Musem in Helena.

The muzzle of that rifle

I have seen several dozen original Hawkens in Museums but never had reason to look at the rivets before.  Jim Gordon has a museum with about two dozen original Hawkens in Glorieta, NM, and he will let you handle them and photograph them, but I did not have reason to handle them.