Hawken Rifle Questions.

[Herb]

I called Carl (who handled it in 1975 and 1976) and he couldn't remember, saying it was .52 or .54, bigger than .50.   I called Carney Pace who also worked there, and he said he had an agument with Greg Roberts the Production Manager (or whatever his title was) about the bore size.  They had slugged the bore and the slug miked .540, which was really the bottom of the grooves, which are .010 deep.  Carney said it was .520 bore.  I have Greg Robert's tracing and dimensions of the rifle, and the barrel mikes 1.175 ahead of the snail and 1.125 at the muzzle.  I checked this at the Helena Museum last September and that is also what I measured.  The barrel measures 33 1/8" long ahead of the snail.  It is not tapered, .050" is the thickness of a dime, half that per side, Carl said you could make that much difference with a file.

[Acer Saccharum]

Great info on the barrel. The taper is small enuff you could use a straight.

Herb, have you any idea of the twist? I'm just curious, not planning to build a Hawken anytime soon. But I was wondering if this was a slow twist, needing a healthy charge to shoot accurately.

[Herb]

I called Carney again and he couldn't remember.  I think Hawkens usually had 1 in 48 twists, but he said some were slow.  He had measured 1 in 66 and 1 in 72 on originals.  The info might be in Baird's book "Hawken-The Mountainman's Choice" (I think it is), which I don't have. In Baird's book "Fifteen Years in the Hawken Lode" he has a drawing of Jim Bridger's powder horn and measure.  The measure holds 51.4 grains of 3F powder, a double charge would be 102.8 grains.  GRRW's catalog says their barrels had 1 in 60 twists as standard, 1 in 75 optional.  They also show their 15/16" .50 caliber barrels with a 5/8" x 18 plug, but I have one picked up off their shop floor by a friend and then given to him by Doc White, and it is 15/16" x 36" threaded for a 3/4" x 16" plug, with a 1 in 60" twist.

[Acer Saccharum]

Neat stuff, thank you.

[Herb]

The Bridger Hawken muzzle which I photographed in Helena last September.

[whitebear]

Not wanting to hijack this thread but there is a highly decorated S. Hawken listed on Antiqueguns.com.  Not much info but good pictures.

[JTR]

Not wanting to hijack this thread but there is a highly decorated S. Hawken listed on Antiqueguns.com.  Not much info but good pictures.

However not an original, but a " Recreation of the Mariano Modena Hawken rifle. By Steve Lodding."

Should make a good shooter!

John

[Bob Roller]

 A nice representation of the Modena rifle but the one that I shot in the first Hawken match
at Friendship in 1968 was made by Tom Dawson and it looked like it had been stolen from the museum.
I've been told that Tom made more than one of these copies but I have no way to prove it.

Bob Roller

[Don Stith]

Bob
I have seen two of the Dawson copies. Only know where one is now. I have his Peterson copy or at least one of them. Tom was able to replicate the blemishes and cracks as well as other fine details. His work was fantastic.

[whitebear]

Sorry my mistake, I guess that I didn't read it as well as I thought.

[blaksmth]

Make it like you want it and be danged what the origionals looked like , unless you are building a copy of one particular rifle, who,s to say that a rifle as you want to build  Wasn't built that way by Jake or Sam, Perhaps it did not survive if it went out west.
I am sure they did build what the customer wanted if the customer had the time to wait on them to get it done.

you can build a rifle on the general lines and forms of a particular Hawken  and then make the Changes you want.

I recently made a rifle that has a cast nose piece and no entry thimble, There were Hawkens built like this but none of the rifles are of large caliber, but mine is.

Also look at the Fitzpatric rifle it has a really weird trigger guard , I don't know if this was a repair or what but they called the man Broken Hand I guess one hand was a little mangled.

 Its your rifle make it the way you want

[greywolf]

I have read that the most common J & S Hawken rifle barrel was .53 caliber, shooting a .520" ball. The simple reason being, I believe, is that the rifle mandrel that the barrels were formed around was that diameter.

When Uberti made the "Santa Fe" Hawkens for the Western Arms gun shop in Santa Fe they copied one of Kit Carson's rifles that its in a vault at the Shrine Temple in Santa Fe. It was so accurately copied that the barrels in the replicas have a .520" bore.

Remember also that almost all of the original rifles were made to order.

The brothers did not usually make the locks.

Remember one thing in particular. There was NO Mariano Modena. His name was the very common Spanish one, Medina. Modena is the town in Italy where Ferraris used to be built. Medina is an Arabic word meaning "market place", dating from the Moorish occupation of Spain.

The typical curling trigger guard on Hawken rifles was copied from English shotgun trigger guards.

[KLMoors]

I have nothing of value to add other than to say- great thread!

[Bob Roller]

I have heard Tom Dawson say more than once that about all anyone can do is to make a representative
type. He was one of the rare ones that went a lot farther than the rest of us. The Dawson camp at Friendship was a gathering place for all who were interested in the Hawken rifle and I always had an invitation to have a steak with Tom,Helen, his father Raleigh and the others.

Bob Roller

[Longknife]

I have read that the most common J & S Hawken rifle barrel was .53 caliber, shooting a .520" ball. The simple reason being, I believe, is that the rifle mandrel that the barrels were formed around was that diameter.

When Uberti made the "Santa Fe" Hawkens for the Western Arms gun shop in Santa Fe they copied one of Kit Carson's rifles that its in a vault at the Shrine Temple in Santa Fe. It was so accurately copied that the barrels in the replicas have a .520" bore.

Remember also that almost all of the original rifles were made to order.

The brothers did not usually make the locks.

Remember one thing in particular. There was NO Mariano Modena. His name was the very common Spanish one, Medina. Modena is the town in Italy where Ferraris used to be built. Medina is an Arabic word meaning "market place", dating from the Moorish occupation of Spain.

The typical curling trigger guard on Hawken rifles was copied from English shotgun trigger guards.

No Mariano Modena?? Then who is this??

http://www.franksrealm.com/Indians/mountainman/pages/mountainman-marianomedina.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Mariano-Medina-Zethyl-Gates/dp/093347251X


http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=39124648

[Dan'l 1946]

 There was a Mariano MEdina. Not MOdena.

[oakridge]

And, some say it's MarianA, not MarianO.

[Dan'l 1946]

  Could be. But the "O" in Mariano would be the masculine form I think.
                                                                  Dan