Period Hunting Pouch, Pics back on

[Shreckmeister]

OK,  I've been holding off posting this for 6 weeks waiting for a reply and one hasn't come so I am
going to ask for input from the forum.  I submitted photos of the pouch to the Fort Pitt Museum.  The curator replied with an immediate response that he felt the pouch was made from repurposed leather from a Hessian soldier's boot.  I've been waiting for a response from a man named Al Segudo who is
known as an expert in Rev War era footwear.  He was being contacted for me through a third party.
Does anyone know Al and have his contact info?  I can't find anything about him online.  I was told he
is or was associated with Colonial Williamsburg.

[gizamo]

Curious if he meant... a Hessian style boot?  Not necessarily worn by a Hessian....

Repurposed leather has been turned into bags.  Even moccasin's have become pouches.  I believe one of the well known bags use to be a piece of leather from a couch or chair...due to its embossing.

[Shreckmeister]

Giz,  He meant a Hessian soldier's boot.

[PPatch]

Very interesting thread Rob, been lurking it. )

dp

[Artificer]

Rob,

I can see the bottom of the flap coming from the double cyma curves from the top  of a Hessian Boot.  It would also explain the added double cyma curves decorations that probably ran down the front of the boot.
Gus

[Elnathan]

If it is a Hessian soldier's boot, that helps establish that it does not date prior to the arrival of Hessian troops. Are we talking about a dragoon's boot, or did the infantry also wear boots?

[Artificer]

If it is a Hessian soldier's boot, that helps establish that it does not date prior to the arrival of Hessian troops. Are we talking about a dragoon's boot, or did the infantry also wear boots?

The Hessian Infantry Units (normally including their Officers or at least their Junior Officers) wore shoes and not boots.  However, Hessian Infantry Officers may/did wear them in winter and especially in the units that wore black gaiters by the Enlisted Men in colder periods.  Well, at least at the beginning of the war.

This link nicely details the problems with trying to keep the Hessians in their original uniforms and how they "evolved" due to lack of supply and/or necessity over the years of the Rev War, though.  

http://www.jaegerkorps.org/Uniforms.html
Gus

[RifleResearcher]

To clarify, Mike Burke on the Fort Pitt Museum staff saw this bag and immediately suggested that it may just be a recycled Hessian boot.  These were not exclusively a Hessian officer's boot.  Hessian was the name given to a style of boot in the late 18th and early 19th century popular with civilians as well.  If you Google that up you will find images that resemble the bag flap.  I have been playing phone tag with Al, when I catch up with him, I will post his comments here.  I have seen a few bags over the years, as I am sure many of you have, that were clearly recycled from boot tops.
Alan

[gizamo]

As to the Hessian style of boot.... that was also my thought in a earlier post.  So, the bag has a half century span in the timeline. Say, pre Rev War to War of 1812 based on leather.  The shape of the bag and size point's to earlier in that timeline.

[Shreckmeister]

To clarify, Mike Burke on the Fort Pitt Museum staff saw this bag and immediately suggested that it may just be a recycled Hessian boot.  These were not exclusively a Hessian officer's boot.  Hessian was the name given to a style of boot in the late 18th and early 19th century popular with civilians as well.  If you Google that up you will find images that resemble the bag flap.  I have been playing phone tag with Al, when I catch up with him, I will post his comments here.  I have seen a few bags over the years, as I am sure many of you have, that were clearly recycled from boot tops.
Alan

     Alan,  Thanks for your post clarifying the discussion.   
Rob

[Artificer]

As to the Hessian style of boot.... that was also my thought in a earlier post.  So, the bag has a half century span in the timeline. Say, pre Rev War to War of 1812 based on leather.  The shape of the bag and size point's to earlier in that timeline.

The underlined sentence piqued my curiosity as to the size the pouch and made me wonder if a larger bag could have been made from Hessian Boots? 

I am beginning with the premise that the extra double cyma curves were decorations that were at least roughly parallel to the one at the top of the boot and ran down the original boot/s.  Of course one can’t say for sure, but it seems unlikely the added double cyma curve decorations would have run perpendicular to the top double cyma curve as that would not seem esthetically pleasing.  If my assumption (and yes I know what that means, GRIN) is correct, then the length of the leather pieces came from the top to the bottom of the original boot/s. 

So I got out a tape measure and began measuring my legs as I cannot easily find my “Un Civil War” reproduction “Wellington Boots” (that came from and the tops are very similar to the Hessian Boot style).   It has been suggested I have tree trunks for legs and I joke that my feet are not really huge, but rather they are “stable gun platforms for offhand shooting.”  GRIN.

Though my size of “Hessian Boot” would have been large to extremely large for the period, the measurements I still think it possible and creditable enough to extrapolate what size pouch was possible to be made from an AVERAGE size Hessian Boot in the time period.   Even considering the double cyma curve that became the bottom of the flap came from the top of the boot where its outside dimensions were the largest, it is possible to make a larger pouch from three pieces of leather from a single boot, when the boots were split down the back where they would originally have been sewn up. 

If this pouch was indeed made from a Hessian Boot, then we also have a pretty good clue they were made from either fine Calf skin (if it was an Officer’s boots) to perhaps slightly lesser grade Cow hide for an  Enlisted Dragoon’s Boots. 

Gus

[necchi]

Well your assuming that the pouch was made from Hessian boot's that where in good condition and disassembled for the purpose of making a pouch.
When the subject of hessian boots came up here I assumed that it would have been salvaged leather from worn out boots.
That would lend the maker to size the pouch with what ever he had at hand, 

[Artificer]

Well your assuming that the pouch was made from Hessian boot's that where in good condition and disassembled for the purpose of making a pouch.
When the subject of hessian boots came up here I assumed that it would have been salvaged leather from worn out boots.
That would lend the maker to size the pouch with what ever he had at hand,  

The first thing that wears out (normally) on all real leather shoes or boots are the heels.  That's part of the reason they were often held on by wood pegs, to make it easier to replace them.  After that, the soles are next to wear out.  Shoe uppers usually did not wear out unless deliberately or carelessly cut, abraded, heated too close to fire to dry and burnt or were not maintained properly.  When not maintained properly, they tend to crack through where the leather is creased by constant bending.  So unless the boot/boots suffered battle damage, most of the leather in the boot (outside the soles and heels and perhaps the front ends of the uppers) could have been used to make a pouch even from a "worn out" boot that could no longer be re-heeled or re-soled.  The boot uppers would have been in good condition even after wearing out heels and soles, though.  So I'm not automatically assuming the boot/boots was/were worn out - other than perhaps the new owner could not get them re-soled or re-healed and/or once those were worn too much to replace - he chose to make a pouch out of one or more of them.

I'm also assuming that IF the boots were in good condition and were taken off an enemy soldier, they would have been used until the heels and/or soles needed replacement and could not have been replaced.  Sure, if the boots were too small for one person, they would have been traded or given/issued to someone who could wear them.

Of course a hit from a rifle or musket ball, or cannon ball or shot, or less likely a saber cut damage in battle might well have caused more damage to even an excellent condition boot.  Though it is perhaps grisly to think of, the boot from a leg or foot that was amputated could also have been the source of the boot to make the pouch.

I agree the maximum size of the pouch made from a boot that had both the heel and sole worn out was up to the maximum amount of leather that was still "good" to make a pouch.  I'm merely suggesting that many if not most of the Hessian boots could have made larger pouches than this one, IF the owner desired to make it to the largest size possible.
Gus

[necchi]

I'm just throwing possibilities too,
maybe the leather that wasn't used from said upper to make the larger pouch, was pieced together to make the shoulder strap we don't see,,

[Artificer]

I'm just throwing possibilities too,
maybe the leather that wasn't used from said upper to make the larger pouch, was pieced together to make the shoulder strap we don't see,,

That's entirely possible.  The remains of the straps look not very wide at all and MAY have been cut "babiche" lace fashion from one piece of leather. 
Gus