non lead projectile test

[Daryl]

.395", almost perfectly round as they come from my mould with small sprue at 95gr.  The .400's weigh 98.2gr.  .394" is listed at 76 gauge, with .396" listed at 75 gauge, .400" at 73 gauge.  Their weights are lighter than I get, so pehraps the sprue is the difference.

It's all math from there - so I added up my cast .395's at 1,132, with another 150 in .400" - enough for a couple months or more.

[northmn]

Back to the bismuth.  I do not believe bismuth will equal lead in softness.  Bismuth shot was mixed with tin to prevent lower pellet disintegration on setback when fired.  Pure lead is considered totally malleable in that it flattens or bends without breaking.  Lead wire will not break by bending back and forth like steel wire.  The brittleness indicates a hardness and mixing with tin does not soften it.  The tin eliminates the brittleness.   My reading on early bismuth shot was that it caused a lot of tissue damage to birds because of that disentegration.  Only testing will tell, but I do not believe it will behave quite like lead but may still be usable.  Good luck.

DP

[axelp]

I was pondering the same thing... I think I will start with 5% lead free solder and go up in percentage...  not to exceed 20%.

I will first see how the ball reacts to a hammer blows. When it does not crumble, but just bends a little or at worse cracks? then I think it "might" work as a projectile.

I guess it wont be like lead and flatten when hit with a hammer, but as long as it is soft enuff to not scratch the bore ta heck, and not crumble to a thousand pieces when it hits a critter's flesh or bones, then we are in business...

The only other issue would be the weight?  Bismuth is equal to lead in weight, but adding the tin will lighten each ball a bit so... What say guys? will it hit highter or lower out to 25 yards?/50yards?/100yards?

Ken

[northmn]

Bismuth is not equal to lead in weight.  It is between steel and lead.  A bismuth #5 pellet weighs about the same as a lead 6 pellet.  I do not remember the percentage.  It was ideal as a shot substitute because it could be used in any barrel made for lead.  I like it in my old double hammer 16 cartridge gun.  were I to use it for a big game load I think I would want a bigger bore like a 54 or 58.  I believe the shot is something like 2% tin? Cast it, shoot it into a pile of wet nespapers and see.   As to taste, if you have ever had Pepto Bismal you have tasted bismuth. 

DP

[axelp]

100% Bismuth's atomic number is very close, if not equal to lead, right? I think so.

I have read where bismuth shot has 3% tin. That would indeed make it lighter than lead shot. So what you say makes a load of sense...

I figured that in a bigger ball than shot sized, it might need to have a little more tin in order for it to stay together, but I might be wrong. I am going to start with 5% just because it might be easier to calculate and not have to take my shoes off.

I agree that a bigger bore bismuth, might be needed to equate to the same killing power as lead in a smaller bore. But I got this cute lil .45 and I only bought a pound of bismuth and I can get more balls out of it in .440 than if I go .570...  Perhaps if I can get it to shoot ok out of my .45, someone with deeper pockets can buy a truck load and try it out in the 54 and bigger? Then between us, we will have solved the problem that is certain to invade your woods eventually, just like it invaded mine?

Pepto Bismal... well if I was used to eating rotten carrion, I might be drawn to bismuth just for the soothing factor it might have on by tummy... So maybe this whole bismuth thing is a great idea on several fronts...

hey, wet newspapers is a GREAT idea... better than the pine log I was thinking of maybe?

thanks all!!   ---and hug a condor today if ya see one?

Ken

[George Sutton]

I think you guys should start sponsoring California Condor egg rolling contests 

Centershot

[FlintRock Rob]

Bi  density   9.78 g/cm3
Pb density 11.34 g/cm3

so pure bismuth is about 86% of the weight of pure lead

Question: I know this is about casting rb, but has anyone actually found bismuth shot for sale anywhere?

[axelp]

google hunters bismuth. But they are not quite up and running just yet so...

I think folks disassemble bismuth modern shells and salvage the bismuth shot from them? I have never actually used bismuth shot-- either modern or traditional. Its all new to me!

I bought my 1 lb chunk of bismuth from rotometals and they were very fast on the delivery and the sale. I bet I woke them up from a nap,,, or at least interrupted them from watching Oprah.

Condor egg rolling contest? egg toss aint a bad idea either.....

I bought a half pound of lead free solder for this experiment at Home Depot.

Ken

[axelp]

oh! and thanks for the info on lead and bismuth density! Any and all help is greatly appreciated. Thanks a TON everyone.

If I get a decent article outta this and win a Nobel Peace Prize?  I will definately mention this board in the article and of course, in my acceptance speech.

Ken

[Robby]

FlintlockRob, If you google "bismuth shot" you should find several places that sell shot. I purchased some about 7 or 8 years ago to use in my ML fowlers, Very expensive. My understanding is that they have to cast each BB, and indeed some of those little buggers still have a sprue on them, also very dirty, leaves a charcoal like dust on every thing it touches. Performance is not as good as lead, but what else is.
Robby

[northmn]

I have used bismuth shot for a few years now.  It is just now getting back up and running for shotshells as they had a fire recently.  As to reloadable shot I do not know.  I have some 6's for reloading and have disassembled 12 ga shells to load my 16.  After their growing pains, bismuth shotshells performed much like high quality lead.  I knocked a few pheasants silly with the stuff out of my 16 ga double where I have to hunt with no-tox.  It should work ok for round ball and load about like WW, but will be lighter.

DP

[BuffaloGun]

We have been forced to use bismuth shot at our clubs skeet & trap ranges by environmental laws.
I've also been using it for birds and small game as well and have been happy with the results.
I'll be curious to see how the non lead projectiles work because they will be our reality in the near future.
Please post your results.
Has anyone seen any reports on commercial efforts?
The need will be there as many of us do not want to have to cast everything we shoot.

[Robby]

I use it on waterfowl, my observation is that it does not work as good as lead. Geese and ducks are a little tougher than pheasants and clay birds. Also in patterning, it is not as tight a pattern as lead, nor carry as far, with the same lethality, everything else being equal. This is with a 16ga. fowler, and cost prevents more thorough experimentation. I have never tried it in a shotshell.

[doug]

We have been forced to use bismuth shot at our clubs skeet & trap ranges by environmental laws.

      How can you afford to shoot it for skeet and trap?  The bismuth shot that I bought a number of years ago, cost about $10/lb about 75 - 80 cents per shot.  I use it for hunting ducks and it seems to kill them on the rare occasions that I actually hit one.  It seems to be fussier than lead shot in terms of whether it patterns well in a cartridge shotgun.  In answer to an earlier poster; the shot that I have is cast and has a mold line around the middle.  It is semi brittle but does not shatter inside the bird, in my experience

cheers Doug

[BuffaloGun]

Yeah, it ain't cheap. We screwed up with the Mass DER and ended up with seasonal mud puddles being ruled as "wet lands".
I guess the biggest complaints are from water fowl hunters and the problwm is killing hits.
Pheasant and rabbits are biggest things I hit with it and haven't had issues.
I would be interested in how a bismuth round ball handles a whitetail or other large game.

[axelp]

well.... we had session number one of the Great California Condor non-lead test.

Starting at 100% bismuth and adding lead-free solder in 3% increments, we stopped at about 80/20 Bismuth and leadfree solder. A 4lb hammer was dropped on the ball from 12 inches on a concrete floor as a test.

A-The lead test ball flattened, but did not crack.
B- The 100% Bismuth shattered and crumbled in a pile of sugar and rice sized crystals.
C- The 100% LF solder ball dented (less than the lead) and did not crack.
C- The Bismuth/LFsolder 97/3 combo shattered in cracker crumb chunks and the in between percentages improved with the increase of LF solder, but they all dented cracked and crumbled...
D- Finally the 80/20 ball dented but still cracked into 2 to 3 pieces with a few smaller crumbles.... 

Unfortunately, my ounces postal digital scale proved insufficient to measure the minute changes in weight... The lead ball registered about .30 ounces, where all of the bismuth and bismuth/tin balls registered .2--something...(most about .25 I think...) pretty shoddy science, but hey, what do ya expect from an artist?

I was pretty depressed about the outcome. We were not planning on trying a shooting test today, but we could not resist so we shot the ball at about 10 paces at a target backed by a 1/2 inch plywood and a chunk of poplar firewood split....

Suprize...The 80/20 bismuth patched ball with .45 gr of FFF, went thru the plywood and thru (about an inch and a half thick section) of the poplar and we could not find the ball in the dirt backstop, but it created a clean hole thru the plywood and the poplar... The lightweight 100% lead-free solder ball we tried, went thru the plywood but dented the poplar and did not penetrate it.

Conclusion: Bismuth and leadfree solder alloy "might" work, but it will never hold together as well as lead. Leadfree solder, holds together really good, is fairly soft, but it is too light to penetrate sufficiently for big game.

We are going to try lead free pewter, and also try a more formal shooting test of the 80/20 Bismuth/LFsolder alloy

But I am sad to say that today I did not find the magic combo that would be an easy substitute for lead...

We had fun anyway.... sorry guys,

Ken

[Daryl]

Ken- I find the 80/20 mix to be quite interesting, based on your wood penetration. Friend of mine in Idaho uses 1/2" ply, then milk jug full of water, then 1/2" ply, the jug of water, etc.  Penetration of 2 boards & 2 jugs = what has worked well on elk, deer and black bears with a variety of modern rounds.  If i told you the ctgs.you'd be surprised.  If you could haul all that stuff out for further testing, it would give a better idea than straight wood.  You could back the 2nd water jug with wood or dirt to stop the ball and check shape but after that second jug, it's rather imaterial.

Good luck.

[axelp]

I am going to do that. the plywood and jug combination sounds like it would be a good penetration test. After a night of thinking, I think the 80/20 ball, although it breaks apart with a hammer is stable enuff to hold together despite the pressures and shock of ignition in the barrel due to the patch and tight barrel confines? Then by the time it leaves the barrel, the only other shock it will receive is when it hits the target. So if it can hold together, and create one hole in the animal, then you are right, it does not matter if it cracks after the fact... Perhaps my error was in trying to force this alloy to act exactly like lead in the crush test...

I wonder if there is something additional that could be added to this alloy to help keep it from cracking? It would have to be safe for the bore, and non-toxic...

I am thinking back on this, and the ball seemed to hold together in the hammer test, similar to the 80/20 earlier on... so maybe the percentage of tin could be reduced a little more to increase weight and density even more---like 85/15 or even 88/12...and it might still work. But more testing will have to be done on that...

For now, the next session, I will mold all the 82/20 mixture into .440 ball and maybe some bigger sized, and we'll test it on your ply/jug/plyjug/ply target idea... and at a suitable distance... probably 25 and 50 yards.

Thanks for the advice!

Ken

[Daryl]

Pleasure is all mine - this information and testing you are doing is valuable knowledge (to me) that I might be able use or to pass on to someone else, sometime. Who knows, if the 'winds' change here, we may get the same legislation.

[axelp]

The guy at rotometals where I bought the bismuth mentioned that I am the third guy he knows of in CA that is experimenting with finding a lead-free alternative for roundball... I asked him to try and connect us via email so we could share our pain together...

A thought when I was in the bathroom this morning (I do my best thinking while sitting down I guess...)

What about electro-plating copper around a ball of 100% bismuth? Could the coating of copper get thick enuff to hold a ball of bismuth together, from the shock of ignition, and impact, but thin enuff to be kind of maleable? not like a leadball exactly (no expansion)----but good enuff? That way, the weight of the bismuth would not be compromised by adding tin...

I know I am getting all futuristic and Jetson-like, but ya know, when I am sittin, I get to thinkin and folks better look out...

 

Ken

[Leatherbelly]

  Ok, why not just shoot brass balls?

[black kettle]

If those misguided souls what's runnin' things outlaw the use of lead,
what ever am I going to do with them 170 1 pound ingots plus 3000
.52 and .54 cal. rb's that only I know the location of?

H'lo LB

Arlin

[axelp]

brass balls? Are they easy to find in various sizes? They would not be as heavy, but they would work about as good as ball bearings I would think... might be too light to penetrate properly.

The bismuth is heavier than brass, and easier to cast at home,  so it is the closest to lead in the way it might work. electroplating them at home would not be that hard either... But I am not sure it would work... anyone have any experience electro-plating?

One thing I noticed about 100% bismuth was, it lost heat MUCH faster than lead. As I added more tin, they took longer to cool.... and we also noticed that the bismuth did indeed expand when it cooled. You could see the bismuth push up out of the hole---instead of lead and the lead-free solder, where it sunk into the mold as it cooled...

Ken

[Daryl]

One thing I noticed about 100% bismuth was, it lost heat MUCH faster than lead. As I added more tin, they took longer to cool.... and we also noticed that the bismuth did indeed expand when it cooled. You could see the bismuth push up out of the hole---instead of lead and the lead-free solder, where it sunk into the mold as it cooled...
Ken

Ken - after pouring the bismuth, would it be possible to press something against the sprue plate to prevent the bismuth from pushing up out of the mold as it cooled.  If successful, this might increase the weight of the ball?  Holding the bismuth inside the mould or the mould blocks closed while it is solidifying may not be possible.  If possible to hold the bismuth at the sprue this might lead to large weight differences - ball to ball - or perhaps heavier 'sprue-ends, which would be better yet - who knows without trying =- just a thought.