Wisdom of using a Jukar barrel

[Mike G]

I have been a lurker here for some years.  I have built some cheap kits in the past, and built one a fowler and a flint pistol from  scratch .  I have been putting together the parts to built a southern style flint rifle but have been trying to do it it as inexpensively as possible.  So far I have a small Siler flintlock, a plain maple stock blank, and a steel Southern steel style butt plate..  My question is about a barrel that I happened upon.  For very little money a friend sold me a Spanish made CVA Jukar flint rifle poorly put together from a kit.  My one and only trip to the range with this Jukar rifle was a great disappointment with the lock barely throwing any sparks and the frustration of failing to fire time after time.  When I did hit the target at 50 yards I managed to get on the paper of my target .  That accuracy along with the good condition of the barrel leads me to believe that I might possibly use this barrel for my flintlock rifle.  I am trying to spend as little as possible on this build so using a barrel of  what appears decent quality (albeit a little shorter than I wanted) seems a good decision.  Or is it?

Has anyone ever used a Jukar barrel to build a new rifle.  If so did they replace the breech plug?  The original breech plug  is longer than  you would find on most muzzle loaders and has what seems to be a very fine thread.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome.

[necchi]

Those 33 1/2" 45cal Jukar barrels are tack drivers!!
Their locks where/are $#@*!! But that barrel is a winner.
If you have the flint model your ahead of the game,
Let the nay sayer's come forth, they can say all the bad about that rifle they want but again, when it comes to that barrel your golden!

Mind ya now, that all depends on the bore condition, a rusted out mess is a rusted out mess!

[David Rase]

necchi,
I have agreed with your statement for years.  The barrels are excellent shooters and the locks (flint) leave a lot to be desired.  Pair up a good Jukar  barrel with a good lock and you have a winner.
David

[Dave B]

What yuu need to consider first is what are you going to do with it when done. If you just going to hang it on a wall then  knock your socks off. Anny time spent building is a learning experience and you have started down that path of scratch building and projects under the belt go a long ways towards building the skills needed for using the expensive stuff that is available. Cutting your teeth as it were is a good place to start as any. If you have more time than money it will serve its purpose well. If you want to be a serious competitor then you need to step up and buy the best barrel you can afford as well as lock mechanism.  You cant go wrong with a good known barrel maker. The "Junkar" With some tinkering can be made to be a little more reliable but the key thing is that the need for sharp flint and properly hardened face of the frizzen can make a big difference with how well the gun lock will spark. I build a CVA colonial pistol kit in flint and the cheap lock was problematic. I read an article in one of the muzzle Loader magazines and came across an article on Flintlock Tuning.  Having gone through the lock as the article suggested was  very helpful in the improvement of the performance.

[Dennis Glazener]

southern style flint rifle

So far I have a small Siler flintlock, a plain maple stock blank, and a steel Southern steel style butt plate..

Since you have just been rounding up parts you might want to consider selling/swapping that small Siler for a good English style lock. The small Siler is a good lock but it is a Germanic styled flintlock and VERY few southern flint rifles had Germanic style locks. You will see MANY reproduction southern rifles with Siler and other Germanic locks but if you look at the originals you will quickly see that the English locks were far more common.
Dennis

[gunmaker]

They're good bbl.   the cap ones are very accurate, I guess because they go off.  Not had any luck with ANY of the "imported" flintlocks.  Get a Chambers late Ketland and go drive some tacks.  Or use the Siler & make a trade rifle instead.    Or file plate round on back and smooth out the pan facets.  Just random thoughts.  Make what you like.  ....Tom

[Captchee]

 i would for the most part agree about the barrels  being very good shooters . however that also depends on the barrel . As i said in the other topic concerning  these guns . I have seen Jukar barrels with twist rates so fast there isnt anything they would shoot  well . i have also seen them with rifling in only 1/2 the barrel . so take a look at  the rifling . if its in good shape and of a slow twist  then the choice is really yours . will it out shoot a custom barrel , well now that depends on the shooter  as most of us dont every shoot well enough to  actually test the extreme accuracy of any  barrel . So really you can by the best barrel ever made . But if your not capable of shooting  accurately , then having that barrel doesn’t mater and your just as likely to  lose in the end to the better shooter who is shooting  what you may feel is a lesser barrel or for that mater lesser gun .

 My main concern would be  the short length and the gun your wanting to build  . But if you accept that and scale the rest down alittle , then you can come out with something . Again  if you look at the photos I posted  in the other topic and find that acceptable , then IMO there is no reason why the stock profile could not be what ever you wanted it to be .
 Now the other thing I have also ran into is sometimes the flash hole is drilled at an angle  that goes forward . In those cases I counter drill  the breech out and thread in a liner . If you plan it out  the line will take out the angled flash hole completely .

 

[David R. Pennington]

I have an old CVA Put together from a kit back in 1970 something. I didn't know much about muzzle loaders then and didn't think it was very accurate till I learned what it's preferred diet was. It had to have .451 round balls with pillow ticking and 65 grains 3f. After I learned that I started knocking squirrels heads off with it. I've killed some deer with it also. I've often thought about repurposing that barrel, but not sure what to do with it. It is a little short and the percussion drum is weird, runs all the way through the breech. Least little oil left in there and it hang fires. What does the "Jukar" mean when referring to these?

[Firelock]

My first ML rifle was a 1976 vintage CVA Kentucky kit I got in college. I won a lot of matches with that gun.

[rich pierce]

What does the "Jukar" mean when referring to these?

It's a brand name stamped on the barrel.

[Bill of the 45th]

I would back up some.  The question was about building a Southern rifle with a CVA/ Jukar flint barrel, and a small Siler.  Neither are appropriate for a Southern gun.  German lock, and a 32" barrel.  I think you have three choices, one is sell/trade both to get the proper barrel lock for a Southern gun, or two, sell/trade one or the other and build something to fit what you have left, or three take what you have and build a frankenstein, to shoot, and learn the building process.  It's your barrel and lock, and we'll do what we can to help... Good luck

Bill

[Glenn]

I went to a match 14 years ago with a CVA percussion Kentucky rifle (33.5" JUKAR barrel) and came home with 9 medals.  It was my first match and I consider myself an average shooter.  I've taken several deer with it.  All were 1 shot stops at about 70 yards broadside and they dropped right then and there.  The barrel you have will be as good as any.  Have faith in it and yourself and good luck.   

[Captchee]

What does the "Jukar" mean when referring to these?

It's a brand name stamped on the barrel.

  As Rich said .
 However Jukar wasn’t just a brand , it  was a  Spanish Gun  manufacture with a very long history .
Kinda like having Remington  or Ithaca stamped on a barrel .

When CVA began  contracting the manufacturing of their guns from Spain , Jukar was who they used .
 Shortly after Jukar stopped importation  of  their specific brand ,BP  guns all together . Today what you see from  importers like Traditions , which carry the Made in Spain  stamping are from Adesa  .
   The real question that I  cant answer is if Adesa is  really Jukar . But what does seem to be the case is that Adesa uses either the Jukar tooling or  tooled up to manufacture very , very similar parts and designs.
Which for the most part are interchangeable  and suffer from the very same problems as the older  rifles did .

[rich pierce]

Thanks, Captchee, for that information.  It looks like there are 2 different discussions here.  One is, "Are Jukar barrels good quality?"  I am hearing they are good shooters, with at least hunting accuracy, and in the hands of some, match winning accuracy.

The other seems to be, "Are the dimensions of a Jukar barrel suitable for building longrifles based on originals?"  The answer seems to be, "Not really.  Too short, straight not swamped, and skinny." Seems the summary is that a gun built with a Jukar barrel could be a fine shooter and be built in a style that mirrors historical guns, but would be noticeably different.

Budget strapped folks will always find it hard to build an historically accurate gun, because the parts cost a bundle.  They can still make a fine functioning gun that may serve their purposes, but be of somewhat limited interest to serious students of original longrifles.

[frogwalking]

I am no expert by any means, but have seen quite a few original, hand forged barrels.  Many of them have different depth grooves, and the spacing is often not the same, that is, the lands are different widths.  How did these barrels shoot?  Apparently the shot well enough for the men whose life depended on them.  Realizing this, I find it strange that today, for our toys, we demand absolute perfection.  Spoiled?  You decide.  

[Captchee]

 That would be my issue as well Rich  as the barrel is on 32 inchs , give or take .
 We are also assuming that the barrel is the smaller 1/3 16th  45 cal barrel not the larger  15/16th  barrel .
  Even if one proportioned the gun down , its going to be small  and if the pull  was to long  it would then look real odd .
 There Are other issues as well like the tang  which would need to be rebuilt or the barrel re-breeched  as the original plug  is a metric thread . Which  as your well aware , would then mean either the new plug would have to have  the correct metric threads  or the barrel re threaded  to accept a readily available plug .
So I think its safe to say that we all would agree that  if  Mike is looking at trying to  make at least a reasonable attempt at a southern rifle  using this barrel , then he is going to   fall short “ no pun intended “
 But if the real jest of the question is if he  can use the barrel to make a rifle  that’s somewhat southern styled , then  I think we could say yes . No reason why not

 But I would have to agree with the others  in that if he sold the gun in parts on say Fleabay , he just might find himself   only  50-70 bucks short of the cost of a  new barrel .

 I also don’t think its about being spoiled .  I would agree with rich in that its more about  what your trying to do .
 If your wanting to recreate one of the  historic guns then there are  things you just have to accept .  One is the longer barrels that these guns carry . While most of us have accepted fudging down the barrel lengths into the 42 inch range  its going to be rather hard to get the right lines by reducing that to 32 inchs .
So lets look at that question .
Even with this Jukar restock , the gun would have look 1000 X better with a barrel that was 10 inches longer . And that’s with doing all the fudging I did to make the barrel apear longer then it really is


 But how long is it if we compare it to something  with a longer barrel . While I don’t have a photo of that gun  in my rack , I do have a photo of how the length of  a re shaped Jukar  compares  to pattern stocks  for 40 inch barrels and how those  compare to a stock blank  which I use for a 42-46 inch barrel 



so as you can see  the leanght is going to come up very short .  but again , the reall question is one of if that is acceptable to  Mike , not to us .   if he can acept that short leanght , then i say go for it . but if  its an issue , i would  use a diffrent barrel . which has 0 to do with his current barrel being a old Jukar made barrel , but one of athetics

[galamb]

Agree, it's what's acceptable to Mike. If using the shorter barrel is the difference between having a rifle or not having a rifle, then I say go for it particularly if he is ok with it not being correct/normal (pick your term).

This is a pic of a J&S Hawken that was obviously cut down during it's lifetime. It's a half-stock 55 cal with a (remaining) 27 1/2" barrel.

When I look it, to me it just seems plain "wrong" despite the fact that it is an original (albeit modified). But, If I had a 28" Spanish or Italian barrel that could be re-breeched (which would take it down near 27 1/2") it could be used to recreate this rifle as it exists today with some degree of accuracy.

I'm certain Mike could likewise find an existing original which would support the look he would be able to achieve with his existing parts - normal? perhaps not, unique to a specific rifle - perhaps?

[Captchee]

 ok , i just thought about this . why not make a 1/2 stock with souther influances ? the barrel would be long enough for that  and all he would need is an under rib .
  his choice of lock might look rather odd though i guess

[Dphariss]

Look into the material used. If this is good then check the breeching and dovetail depths. If is checks out, even if it needs to be rebreeched its OK to use.

Dan

[necchi]

I went to a match 14 years ago with a CVA percussion Kentucky rifle (33.5" JUKAR barrel) and came home with 9 medals.  It was my first match and I consider myself an average shooter. 

I have a similar experience.
My introduction to Rendezvous years back was a local club's informal shoot. I was allowed to shoot with them in street cloths but agreed before hand that I couldn't win prizes because of the clothing rule. OK,,,

I could see eye's roll as the newbie (me) uncased his Jukar.
A butchered up kit I got for $75 and referbed.
Long story short, I won or placed in all the matches they had that day.
I was in, got help finding clothes and invited back.
That was mid May, by the end of June I had my first tent.

[Bob Roller]

Ardesa has made and marketed a representation of a Rigby or Henry long range rifle.
I understand they shoot well at long distances but I have remade two of the locks that
failed because of very soft tumblers.Both failed before six shots were fired.
Another case of putting money in barrels and cosmetics but the part that makes it fire,
forget it.
Bob Roller

[Mike G]

Thank you all for your input.   I was fairly certain that I was going to use the barrel for my rifle when I originally posted, I am less so now.  I also think I misspoke when I said I wanted to build a Southern style rifle.  To a novice like me, a Southern rifle is another way of saying an iron mounted rifle, to a panel of experts, as is found here, it means something entirely else. 

Again, thank you for your advice. 

[mountainman70]

Hey Mike,why not stash the Jukar back for a while,build your iron mtd long rifle,then when you have gained some skills,build the Jukar into a proper 1/2 stock plains rifle? Anyway ya go,have a good time with it.There is always some older Hawken style stocks and parts floating around to buy,and build up your stash.Best regards,Dave

[Hungry Horse]

Over the years I have built several kids guns on Jukar barrels. They aren't all the same. Some of the early ones have very light rifling, and poor breech threads. So be aware, and don't buy these barrels sight unseen.

                  Hungry Horse

[dlbarr]

Recognizing that I'm new here and not as knowlegable in these matters, I have to say that I actually like captchee's short-barreled longrifle. I also don't find the Hawken "carbine" objectionable (although I used to have a TC Hawken with its 28" barrel that I found distasteful).

Maybe I like those short barrels because I'M short(?) Just my 2 cents...