Rifle Kit

[MGillman]

What is the best rifle kit for a first time builder? I would like a pre-inletted stock for the lock, barrel, etc. I have searched most websites on them. I have finally saved the money to purchase one. Looking for a rifle that would fit in the Virginia Frontier 1760-1780. Any help is greatly appreciated.

M.Gillman

[jamesthomas]

 Give Mr. Tip Curtis a call, he will have everything you need.

  1-615-654-4445 is his phone number.

[tallbear]

The 1760 time frame is a difficult one to get a correct rifle for as we have very few examples of what a rifle from that period looks like.While I am not familiar with all of Mr.Curtis' offerings I have never seen one from him that fit's that period.If you are serious about this time and place I suggest you give Jim Chambers a call as he has a couple of offerings that will fit.

Mitch

[Stuartg]

I second James' recommendation to call Tip. I'm working on a lefty Lancaster from Mr. Curtis at the moment actually and I'm very pleased. He doesn't have a website or catalogue so you just have to call him...which isn't such a bad thing! I learn lots every time we speak, and super nice guy to boot.

[acorn20]

I don't know where you're located Mr. Gillman but if you can make it to Fort Frederick Market Faire the end of April, Tip's tent is usually the first on the left along the driveway to the Fort from the parking area.  You'd be hard pressed to find a finer Southern Gentleman to do business with.  With that said, Jim Chambers won't lead you astray either and has a few fine, early rifle kits.

[MGillman]

Where is Fort Fredrick?

[Nate McKenzie]

Great people to deal and excellent kits.
http://www.flintlocks.com/

http://knobmountainmuzzleloading.com/

[Artificer]

Where is Fort Fredrick?

Western Maryland. 

The first time I went there was in 81 or 82 when they held a sort of "Military Weekend" depicting all time periods the Fort was in use from the French and Indian War through the UnCivil War.  I was AMAZED there was still a stone "star" fort from 1756.  The 18th century Market Faire is amazing.  LOADS of goods and some people also demonstrating period trades on that weekend.  WELL worth going, if one is interested in our period!!!

Fort Frederick State Park is located in the Cumberland Valley, 18 miles west of Hagerstown and one mile south of I-70 near Big Pool (Rt. 56, Exit 12). The park is 88 miles from Baltimore and 81 miles from Washington, D.C.

Fort Frederick State Park
11100 Fort Frederick Road
Big Pool MD 21711​


http://www.friendsoffortfrederick.info/market_fair.htm

Gus

[kaintuck]

Ditto on the three here mentioned......get great brass parts....from these 3...forget the $#@* bronze/ brass mix from other vendors....

Spend more on the front end......

[moleeyes36]

What is the best rifle kit for a first time builder? I would like a pre-inletted stock for the lock, barrel, etc. I have searched most websites on them. I have finally saved the money to purchase one. Looking for a rifle that would fit in the Virginia Frontier 1760-1780. Any help is greatly appreciated.

M.Gillman

One thing to remember is that a quality "kit" is usually more effort than a new builder expects.  They are more like a parts set than a snap together kit.  There is a considerable amount of final inletting, wood removal and shaping, and metal finishing involved.  Not hard to do, but take your time.  I recommend that you purchase the DVD from Jim Chambers that shows how to put together one of his kits.  Most good quality kits are about the same process and it would give you an idea of what's involved.

I agree with the comments that Tip Curtis is a fine gentleman and an honest man.  I've talked to him a number of times at the Alafia Rendezvous and I'm currently nearing completion of a Tip Curtis Bucks County Rifle kit.  The kit is very high quality including pretty accurate pre-inlet areas. 

HOWEVER, if you are interested in a rifle that is as historically correct as you can get it (right stock, lock and hardware for the rifle), do some research and know what the rifle should really look like before deciding on what you buy.  I have not always done that in the past, have regretted it, and have seen the error of my ways.    But if what you're after is just a good looking rifle, made from quality parts, that generally fits a particular period (and there is nothing wrong with that approach), any of the makers of I've seen listed in this thread can give you what you want. 

One last comment.  No matter what you buy, when you start building it don't hesitate to ask a question on this forum on how to do something if you're stuck.  Some of these guys (not me) have incredible talent as builders and are always willing to answer questions and explain things to you.  The ALR forum is a really great resource.

Mole Eyes

[PPatch]

Yo, Mole Eyes;

Your reply above was tops. You provided the original poster some valuable information in a very nice way. Good job.

dp

[moleeyes36]

Yo, Mole Eyes;

Your reply above was tops. You provided the original poster some valuable information in a very nice way. Good job.

dp

Thanks.  As you can tell, I've learned some hard lessons over the years about building kit rifles.  The Bucks County Rifle is my last kit.  Or last one for myself at least.  I keep getting people sweet talking me into putting one together for them that they bought and then discovered it wasn't just a weekend project.  I guess I'm an easy mark.

I'm researching what I need to build a historically correct Bucks County Rifle (Shuler style).  I've got to give Ron Luckenbill credit, he has been a tremendous help to me. He never tires of answering my "dumb" questions and provides me with some really good insight on what a Bucks County Rifle should actually look like.  He's great.

Mole Eyes

[Acer Saccharum]

I see a problem with the word 'KIT' in that it has at least TWO meanings.

Purchaser definition:
If I were to buy a rifle kit for the first time, and having no experience in the endeavor, I might expect that I could snap this together, sand and stain the wood, and it would be ready to use.

Seller definition:
A complete parts set with pre-carved stock and barrel already inlet. A kit of parts to build an historically accurate rifle or smoothbore. Builder supplies consumables such as stain and sandpaper, and tools to assemble the gun.


Neither seller nor purchaser is wrong. But it's a matter of expectations. At the time of sale, does either party ask what the other expects from the purchase? Someone should ask the questions, the purchaser to protect himself from getting in over their head; and the seller to promote good business and develop a rapport with their customers to foster repeat business.

How many 'kits' are out there languishing in a closet?

In conclusion, maybe there is a better word than 'Kit'.....

[smylee grouch]

One thing you might want to consider is the avaiability of harder wood. Some KITS use a softer grade of wood and it might not be what you need for a rifle with any carving. I know Jim Chambers and Dave Keck will get you harder wood if you want. I dont know how the other kit makers grade wood so this is something you might want to consider.

[borderdogs]

Hi Acer Saccharum,
For the sake of beginners and clarity, in your opinion, what would be the best situation for the first build; parts and a rough stock, parts and a partially inletted stock, or a kit as you define it? Aside from a lot of reading and studying which is a big part of the process, I'd really like to hear from those with a lot of experince what they think is the best course for a first build?
Thanks,
Rob

[Karl Kunkel]

Maybe "pre-carved stock and component set"?

[Acer Saccharum]

Hi Acer Saccharum,
For the sake of beginners and clarity, in your opinion, what would be the best situation for the first build; parts and a rough stock, parts and a partially inletted stock, or a kit as you define it? Aside from a lot of reading and studying which is a big part of the process, I'd really like to hear from those with a lot of experince what they think is the best course for a first build?
Thanks,
Rob

That's a simple question with no simple answer. I'll try my best to help you out.

You need some skill, or you need to develop them. Have you built rifles before, or is it your first time?

If the answer is FIRST rifle, then the best thing you can do is to find someone near you that can give you some pointers in person. Next thing is to get the 'books' on building. Another big help would be to have a rifle that is similar to what you're building available to study to 'see how it was done'.

The breech area is the heart of the rifle, where a bunch of different things are going on. The wood at the breech holds the barrel and lock in relationship with each other. The trigger assembly, guard and sideplate are also in the breech area. And all these parts have screws and pins holding everything together.

This is complex area, but it's a puzzle, which can be put together piece by piece. This is where books, drawings, a study gun, and an experienced builder will guide you through the process. For it is a puzzle, which, if done in the proper sequence of barrel, lock and sideplate, trigger, guard, you will come out OK, with some mistakes.

Everyone makes mistakes. The more you build, the more you become aware of the pitfalls. It's awful hard to know what you're doing until you've got experience behind you.

I'd start with something attainable, not too complicated, plain wood, simple inlets. Set your sights higher on the next build.

Getting a stock with the barrel inlet and the ramrod drilled, and the buttstock rough carved in my opinion, about the best route. This gives one the most flexibility for locating the lock.


Don't do this if you can help it:
If you have no one to teach you, and you're working in a gunbuilder vacuum, you will make more mistakes, get the sequence mixed up, and paint yourself into the corner many times over.

That's is what I did, as I was into this long before the internet, before I had a car....

Lastly:

We now have the internet, but you can't really build a gun by the internet. Find yourself a mentor.

 

[moleeyes36]

Maybe "pre-carved stock and component set"?

Karl, I think the problem is that the word kit is used by some makers to describe essentially a snap together gun they make and by some makers to describe, as you say, a pre-carved stock and component set.  There is no hard and fast rule as to what defines a kit.  Some makers clearly state their product is a pre-carved stock and component set and some aren't clear about what you're getting.  I definitely don't think any of the companies is out to pull the wool over the eyes of a potential customer.  However it would be a good thing if all the makers of kits/pre-carved stock and component sets would describe what a new builder is getting when he orders their product.  Some do this and others don't.  But a phone call or email from a potential buyer to the maker before making the purchase would clarify things.

Mole Eyes

[whitebear]

My opinion is that for a first rifle a southern poorboy is a good choice.  Originals were plain work guns, a fancy stock was not needed, 50 little curlicue inlays were not used, just a plain functional rifle.  You will learn the relationship of the items named in the prior reply for the breech, how and when to inlet what, the geometry and architecture of the stock etc.  After this build you can go to something a little or a lot more complicated as you see fit. 

To give you some advice that my mentor gave me on my first build (poor boy) I was concerned that I would mess up and it would look weird but he told me:  go ahead and build it, it may look like $#@* to you but there are a lot of people that spend good money buying what they want because they are afraid of making a mistake.  Even if it is not the most beautiful gun ever maid you can hold your head up and be proud because "I built it":  and my next one was better and I see some improvements in all since then. 

[Frenchy]

I've found that the book Recreating the American Longrifle was the most helpful. It even has a list of the order to do things. I am a very visual type of person.
The Jim Chambers/Ron Ehlert 3 DVD set is wonderful for me. Buy it and watch Ehlert do two 'kits'. Then figure out if that is the way you want to go or not.

[Acer Saccharum]

I think Mark Elliott and others did a sequential list of how they go thru a build. Maybe search tutorials.

[Tim Ault]

I was in your position 2 years ago thinking about how I was gonna build my first traditional rifle , I ended up with my first with a total precarved pre inlet stock I got cheap off another forum  went to TOTW and ordered the barrel ,lock , trim pcs . And few by the seat of my pants after that . I will never use a total pre inlet stock ever again ! Most of the time the inlets were too large  had to weld metal onto the tang to fill the gap in the wood . It was not a simple bolt the parts and and go job . But I did learn alot on where the proper location of the different parts matter in relation to each other , a good general learning experience on problem solving also . My second one I just finished I used a precarved but with only the barrel channel inlet and the RR hole and groove cut . I again ordered the parts that I wanted on it and not what was in a "kit" offered  by whoever , this one actually took less time and turned out much better . I'm still flying by the seat of my pants as I didn't buy any books but I looked at lots of pictures on the interweb  asked alot of questions and did alot of planning and thinking before I even started . My advice is pick a type or style of rifle you like and keep it simple and basic for your first one , it's not hard but it is challenging till you have the basic understanding of what goes were and in what order . Good luck you can do it !

Tim

[borderdogs]

I have built a Thompson Center kit in the early eighties but that is it. One thought I had was to use a rifle as a guide to model as Acer mentioned. I spent much of my life owning and running a manufacturing business where I started in a machine shop when I was a kid and while I was in college. I have also 30 years off and on building furnature in my home shop. Many of the pieces I built were copied from pieces we owned. That method has always worked for me. I'd say I am pretty confident with machine and hand tools both for wood and metal working and I know how to draw. But building a rifle; a high quality, traditional rifle is like building a boat. Unlike most furnature there are few straight lines to work from and you have to train your mind to think in a three dimensional way. I guess that is the most daunting thing about it. When you go on TOW or other sites the "kit" is seductive. I have considered finding an in the white rifle too but is that really building a rifle?

I really like the Hawken design but when I thought about trying to build one I wised up and ordered one to be built by a pro instead. By WB Selb in fact. I have been looking at the poor boys for a first I don't own one to copy from but the options are very simple and if you screw up somewhere it might just look more woodsy, if you know what I mean.

I appreciate all the views this is a great forum!
Thanks,
Rob

[Dphariss]

What is the best rifle kit for a first time builder? I would like a pre-inletted stock for the lock, barrel, etc. I have searched most websites on them. I have finally saved the money to purchase one. Looking for a rifle that would fit in the Virginia Frontier 1760-1780. Any help is greatly appreciated.

M.Gillman

http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles04.htm

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

It's hard to tell someone to start simply when what they really want is a beautiful fancy rifle, curly maple stock.

For me, it is a continuing journey, and my first ten or twenty guns I'd rather not post on line. 

It took a long time (and many guns) for me to have the appreciation and understanding of what I need to do to put a competent rifle together. (although each gun was my best...at the time)

On the other hand, I have seen guys put together a 'first gun' that was very impressive. This is rarely a one gun hobby.