Author Topic: ball size for .58 cal  (Read 8992 times)

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2258
  • Oklahoma
ball size for .58 cal
« on: February 26, 2014, 12:28:30 AM »
I am already planning my next future build, as I tend to buy things over a period of time instead of all at once. I am thinking of my next being a .58 cal. What size ball/patch combo works best in Rice barrels?
Psalms 144

Offline mark esterly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2014, 02:14:15 AM »
it depends whether it's square or radius rifling.  radius I'd try a .562 or .570 with a thick patch.  square rifling you may get away with a .575 and thinner patch.
living in the hope of HIS coming.......

Online Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15835
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2014, 09:24:04 PM »
.575" ball and 10 ounce denim patch - ie: .0225".  That is a good ball and patch combination for ANY .58 & where I would start.  A .570 RB mould, like the one I had that cast a .574" X .574" pure lead ball would also do well.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

hammer

  • Guest
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2014, 11:46:18 PM »
I go by the depth of the rifling.   So shallow grooves allow a bigger ball with a thin patch and vice versa.   For my .58 flinter with extremely shallow grooves I use a thin, 400 thread, cotton patch soaked in Neatsfoot Oil with a .575 ball.  Most accurate rifle I have.  Deeper grooves and I would go with ticking and a .570 ball.  Horses for courses ...

Peter.

sloe bear

  • Guest
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 05:07:12 PM »
I guess I'm lazy ,I bought a .570 and played with patches to get the combination that my TVM likes ..570 ball with a .15 oxyoke patch work great.

Offline mark esterly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2014, 12:20:12 AM »
you'd need a big hammer to get a .575 with a .022 patch in my Colerain .58
living in the hope of HIS coming.......

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2014, 07:57:18 AM »
 I shoot a .562 in my Harpers Ferry, and it shoots, and loads great.

               Hungry Horse

Online Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15835
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2014, 06:35:30 PM »
you'd need a big hammer to get a .575 with a .022 patch in my Colerain .58

The only hammer I use is the one on the end of my right arm.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline mark esterly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2014, 01:04:38 AM »
i'll remember not to get you angry if we ever meet then Daryl
living in the hope of HIS coming.......

Offline Standing Bear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2014, 04:20:42 AM »
Depends on your barrel's groove to groove and land to land measurement.
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

http://texasyouthhunting.com/

Online Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15835
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2014, 06:45:08 PM »
I started my .577 Musketoon off with .575" RB's and a 10 ounce denim patch - that's .0225" thick. That particular Enfield's bore diameter measures .574", with grooves only .003" deep at the muzzle, .011" deep at the breach.  A .575" ball would just sit on the crown - by itself.  It's .003" deep muzzle rifling makes it .580" groove diameter at the muzzle where that .575" + .0225 + .0225" combination had to fit before it could be pushed down. Yeah - it was snug due to the .620" combination being introduced into the .580" groove diameter (.020" compression per side).

As soon as I could pick up a .562" ball mould, I did - however I did shoot that .575" ball and thick patch on the trail 2 weeks in a row - using a 'good' short starter then the rifle's short steel rod to push it down. Once inside the muzzle, it went down easily, as it was then sized to the bore and grooves.   No - the patch did not cut, nor did it burn - fired patches were resusable.  

With the .562" ball, I use the thicker red/white/blue/blue railroad mattress ticking that runs .023".  That combination still measures out at .608 - still nice and snug with .028" compression - .014" per compression per side in the bottom of the grooves.

What is needed to load tight combinations?

Technique and a good muzzle crown.

Your rifle, especially if a production rifle and not already altered by someone, did not come with a good enough crown.  It will not allow tight combinations without ridging the ball's metal or/or cutting the patch material if snug combinations are attempted.  

Anything less than about an .018" tightly compressed denim or ticking patch is not even useful as a snot rag, in my most humble opinion.(or the most humble opinion I can conjure up on this subject). ::)

I'm not alone, here guys - Taylor, LB, Wade P. Neil H. Big Ron, Darrell, Kim, my Wife and Daughter - and many others here also shoot tight combinations - why - because they are accurate and never need wiping while shooting and STILL are easy to load - -remember - technique and muzzle crown.  

If your bore builds fouling, then, as Taylor said - it is pitted - or you are not using enough lube - licking a patch does not constitute a spit lubed patch - or your ball and patch combination is too small in diameter - or a combination of any of these "problems".

There are a lot of "accuracy" shooters right here at ALR - NONE of them use thin patches and undersized balls - if they did, they would not be  included in the group of accuracy shooters - think about it.  

If you're happy with having to wipe your bore because you don't want to, or are unable to load a tighter combination and you are happy with what many might consider poor accuracy, that's just fine - but please don't say it's impossible to load tight combinations without a hammer or mallet  - that  just ain't so.  If a bore sized ball (let alone .005" undersized) and .020" or a bit thicker won't go in - your crown or technique needs work. Pure and simple.

A .005" 'under' ball is where we start now in all rifles - automatically, with that 10 ounce denim .022") patch. We find it works in ever rifle - we only need to find the powder charge it prefers and the 'working up a load is done' - It does not matter if they have .016" rifling, .012" or only .004".

 My first Ml rifle, a TC, with it's typical wonky tight/loose/tight/loose/tight/etc - buttoned .004" rifling and 48" twist worked best with a .495" ball and .022" (compressed) denim patch & 80gr. 2F C&H - and that was 40 years ago when I was a kid and when I first started learning this game.  I did not have to wipe that rifle while shooting - it shot 'clean'.  I followed Ned Robert's teachings that, as he wrote the Dutchman said "Ven yu loads der next von, yu cleans der last von (and the last load of the day, loads as easily as the second).  

Today, I find the last one loads as easily as the first - or when shooting my .32 longrifle, it loads more easily than the first if using track's Mink oil (or Neetsfoot oil) for lube.  That is using either a .311" (my first mould), or the .320" ball that I use now (doesn't matter much) and .0230" ticking patch in it. That rifle has .008" rifling- but a beautiful crown- of course. In this rifle, I found the small ball would not shoot well beyond about 38gr. of 3F, while the larger .320" ball shoots well with up to 45gr. - interesting - 45gr. gives me just over 2,000fps.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 06:54:43 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5335
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2014, 08:25:44 PM »
Many years ago I had excellent results with a .562" ball in a Zouave .58.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline George Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 755
Re: ball size for .58 cal
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2014, 09:37:04 PM »
I shoot a .562 with a pure linen patch. I can load without a short starter and I see no decrease in accuracy. I used to buy the tight load theory but I have since changed my mind.

There is an old argument about whether or not our ancestors used short starters. If they did there are not a lot of examples out there.

Each to his own, do what works best for you and your rifle. Every one of these guns like something different.

Centershot.