Information on Samuel McCosh?

[pb2208]

I have a longrifle stamped with McCosh on the barrell.  My research has led me to believe this rifle was built by Samuel McCosh of PA.  I am currently attempting to gather information on the gunmaker for my records.  I understand that he is listed in a book called (I think) "American Rifle Makers" (I do not have access to this book).  Does anyone have information on McCosh?

I will be posting pictures of the rifle later and asking for advice on restoration and value.  I found the rifle in my dads basement with lots spattered paint all over it.  I did have someone clean it (only), and he was recommended by someone at the NRA museum.

[T*O*F]

I understand that he is listed in a book called (I think) "American Rifle Makers"

It's "American Firearms Makers" by Merwyn Carey.

Samuel McCosh about 1840
General gunsmith and maker of percussion Kentucky rifles at 22 Diamond Street, Pittsburgh, PA.

[famouseagle]

Rosenberger and Kauffman's book, "The Longrifles of Western Pennsylvania" has a bio and several examples of McCosh rifles (one in color).  He did some really nice work.

If you cannot find a copy to borrow or steal, you may try an inter-library loan.

[Tanselman]

Sellers' book, "American Gunsmiths," lists both the well known father, and the son by the same name. The elder Samuel McCosh is listed as working about 1826 to 1861 (last time he advertised his business in a local directory). He made both flintlocks and percussion longrifles in Pittsburgh, PA. His best work was elaborate and well done, typical of the best late flint guns made in or around Pittsburgh.

The son, Samuel McCosh, was working in Gastonville, PA in 1876. The book "The Longrifles of Western Pennsylvania' by Rosenberger and Kaufmann is the best reference on McCosh, and illustrates four McCosh rifles plus provides additional working information on him. If you can't find a copy of it, I have a couple of extra unused copies and would part with one if you want it.  Shelby Gallien

[pb2208]

Thanks for the great information.  There appears to be more than I expected.  I will try to locate copies of the books in a Library and see if I can my local library to request them.

As I stated, I WILL be posting pictures so I can hopefully start my next task (Restoration/Value).  The posting should accur within the next week.  Since I have never done this before, it will be a trail and error effort.

Again thanks to all for the information.

[pb2208]

As I promised, here are some pictres of the rifle.












Now for some additional questions.
Can anyone give me an idea of restoration, needed or not? 
What can I expect from restoration?
What would be the estimated value (for insurance) without restoration, with restoration?
Should the rifle be capable of firing after a restoration?
Can you tell if the rifle was made bt the elder or younger McCosh?
Is there somewhere, or someone, that can provide mw with period accessories?

As I said before, I am a "NEWBIE" to this area, so I hope I am asking the right questions.

[Dave B]

You have a nice rifle there. I would be inclined to think you should leave it alone in regards to restoration. It  appears to be in fairly good shape as it is. There has been some work done to it already and its not good to over do restoration IE excessive refinishing, polishing etc... Can you post photos of the entry pipe and muzzle end of the rifle? I my self am not familiar enough with this particular maker and the market for his rifles. Having the name on there makes it worth more than with out. I picked up a similar rifle with comparable features a year ago and the asking price was $1800. it didn't have a signature so the price is  less than if it had. Others would be better able to give you a price for your piece. I have heard it said that it is worth what ever you are willing to let it go for and what some one is willing to pay. That always kind of bugged me hearing that but it is true.  I was able to see some very fine rifles by known makers at the KRA show and they were selling for $3000 and up. Some were under that mark but very few.
Here are some pic's from the piece I picked up. Note that it has not been cleaned they bring higher prices in this condition.

[pb2208]

I can see many similarities between your rifle and mine.  I appreciate the information.  Here are some more photos.


"Rear Pipe"


"Middle Pipe"


"Front Pipe"


Site appears to be copper/brass


The scale shows 1/8 inch increments.

This would make the barrel diameter to be about 7/8 inch and the bore would be about 3/8 inch.  I make this a 38 gauge rifle.  The overall length of the rifle aroung 60 inch.

[Tanselman]

Regarding your question on restoration, the two big issues I see with the gun are: 1) the lack of original finish and patina, and 2) the barrel appears to be shortened perhaps 4 inches, based on location or rear sight and the short distance between last ramrod pipe and nose cap.  There is always the question of whether restoration is worth the cost, i.e. will you get it back in resale value, or is it primarily done so you can enjoy the gun more. That's something you need to decide. I'd probably have someone replace the lost patina around the edges of the furniture and other appropriate locations, and live with the rest since it doesn't look "stubby" to me, i.e. there is still a decent length barrel. Hopefully the brass has only been polished, and will dull back down in the next year or two. If it has had some type of sealer on it, it may require cleaning again to get it to oxidize or dull down somewhat, for a more appropriate look.

The gun was made by the elder Samuel McCosh, and is a nice, typical examaple of his work... not his fanciest, but still good and very representative. I always cringe a little when someone expresses the desire to shoot an old original, particularly when it has some value and is a relatively nice fullstock. There is always a risk of damage involved with an antique of some value, and there are lots of good repros floating around if you want to shoot a muzzle loader.   Shelby Gallien

[pb2208]

Your comment on the patina is well taken.  Thanks

As for the barrel, you have confirmed somthing that I was concerned about.  I have heard that the missing piece can be replaced.  If this is done, the nose cap would have to be longer since there the underlying wood is missing, and I am not sure of the apperance.  Do you think this is something I should consider or should I just leave it alone? 

As far as I know, there is not finish sealer on the brass and it should dull down.

I really do not think I would ever really consider shooting the rifle.  However, I really wanted to confirm my own understanding.  I have heard both, shoot and do not shoot, from various sources. 

Thanks

[Tanselman]

Replacing the lost piece of a barrel, called "stretching" it, often involves adding a piece of an old barrel of the same outside dimensions. Most restorationists have old barrels just for that purpose. The stock wood must also be extended by adding a matching piece to the muzzle end where it was cut off when th ebarrel was shortened. The same original muzzle cap is retained and remounted on the new extended piece of forestock.  Shelby Gallien

[keweenaw]

As Shelby said in his first post, the rifle doesn't look stubby so doing the barrel stretching really isn't needed and would probably cost more done by a good professional than it would increase the value of the rifle.  For moderately priced rifles like yours the less restoration that is done the better especially when they are in generally good condition.  I tend to disagree with Shelby about shooting period pieces unless they are very fragile, very valuable or very important.  On your rifle about all that would need to be done to make it shootable is to give the bore a good lapping.  That's assuming the stock is sound and the lock and triggers work correctly and that the bore is in generally good condition and not deeply pitted.  Thee things could quickly be determined by a good black powder gunsmith.  Your gunsmith would remove the drum to make sure the threads are sound and would put in a new nipple.   If those threads aren't sound the old drum goes back in and you're not going to shoot it.   None of that would influence the value of the rifle and some powder fouling residue on the brass would help the patina!

This difference of option between shooters and collectors is stronger in the rifle community than in the shotgun community, particularly among those who collect American pieces.  There are many shotgun shooters at Friendship, including me, shooting original English shotguns that were made in the 1820's to early 1860's and those pieces are generally much more fragile than any rifle.  I know Dick Chubb shot a deer the other year with a percussion Purdey rifle that was built in the 1820's to no ill effects other than to the deer. 

Tom

[mr. no gold]

Nice Rifle. Thank you for putting it up on the wall for all to see. McCosh was a good maker if somewhat late in the game. Some of his guns are truly fine pieces. My unsolicited advice is that you do nothing whatever to it. Just let the brass darken up and enjoy it. You can shoot it as it is, but the restorers I know say that if it is reconverted and/or barrel stretched back out, it is unwise to do so. You may run afoul of the 'law of unintended consequences'.
Regard-Dick

[famouseagle]

I  think one should get a careful inspection by a qualified gunsmith before shooting it "as is".

[Dave B]

PB,
Thanks for posting the other views. It is helpful to see some of these details to have a clearer picture of the rest of the rifle and how they laid out the fore stock and the brass furniture. I am trying to keep a archive of details as folks share with us these great originals. Thanks again
DAVE B

[mr. no gold]

'As is' in this case implies that all personal safety conditions and inspections are met for the good of the shooter and the rifle. Having a football does not mean that you can or should play in the middle of a freeway. Common sense always prevails!
Dick

[JTR]

Thanks for the pictures of your rifle!
And what a treat to find something like that in your dads basement! Do you have any idea how it found it’s way there?
It looks like it’s an original percussion gun, at least I don’t see anything in the picture to indicate it was ever a flint, so with that in mind I’d say it was made about 1830 to 1840s. By 1850 or so the full patchboxes were long gone. I’m not familiar with Mc Cosh and his guns so he might have made full PB guns after that date.
From a collectors standpoint, to bad about the missing finish, but if you’re happy with it is what counts. Splattered paint on old finish can be fairly easily removed with a dental pick and patience without hurting the remainder of the finish.
If your gun had a before cleaning appearance similar to the one Dave B posted, it was worth about $3000/3500 or so. The way it is now, about $2000/2500, so your cleaner guy cleaned off quite a few $$$$.
I’m in Shelbys’ camp on shooting old ones, strictly from a safety standpoint. Why take the chance?
You don’t know how the gun has been stored (other than your dads basement) and don’t know what corrosion/erosion has been going on inside the metal of the barrel.
Your gun has a nice thick barrel and wouldn’t likely burst. But what if it did, where your hand Used to be, or if the breech plug exits the barrel and takes up residence where your eye used to be?
If you gotta shoot it, take the barrel out and have it X-rayed before you pull the trigger.
John

[tallbear]

PB
Thanks for posting the pics.Would it be possible to get a pic of the engraveing on the patchbox.It's a little tough to see in the pic posted.

Thanks in advance!!!
Mitch

[pb2208]

As requested, here are some more detailed pictures.




I want to thank everyone for their responses. 

As for the apperance of the piece,  I  will need to have some knowledgeable person apply some color as appropriate.

I will never actually fire the piece. 

Can anyone give me some guidance on collecting some acutritments typical of the period 1830-1840.   I would like to make a display of the rifle with some extras (ball bag, powder horn, bullet mold, etc.).

[tallbear]

THANKS!! PB for the additional pics

Mitch

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

There is a three volume set of books, titled " Accouterments, Accouterments II, Accouterments III" by James R. Johnson that will provide you with a broad pictorial guide to the information you seek. The rifle is very nice. Thank you
Hurricane

[JTR]

Nice patchbox!
For accoutrements you might consider something similar to the two below,

Powder Horn;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=350125537281&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=022

Bullet Mold;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130268773696&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003

Obviously these are on e-bay, and there’s lots of junk listed so you need to be careful, but these appear to be the real deal, and probably won’t sell for unreasonable prices. Maybe $100/125 for the horn and $35/50 for the mold.
A decent original plain bag will likely cost you about $300/400.

I’m not selling these and have no association.  If you have any questions on purchases or whatever, fell free to contact me via e-mail. 
John

[scooter]

Sellers may have called the 2 men named McCosh father/ son but in truth they were uncle/nephew. Here is some biographical information. The name incidentally was pronounced Mc CUSH [rhyme with rush].

Samuel McCosh the elder  (1796-1868).  gunsmith.  Samuel McCosh the elder, gunsmith, has been reported to have been the uncle of a second man, also a gunsmith, named Samuel McCosh.  Samuel McCosh the elder was first listed as a gunsmith in Peters Township, Washington County, in 1816 and 1817, in tax lists.  From 1826 through 1830 he was a gun smith in Pittsburgh.  From 1831 through 1846 his name was on the tax rolls of Nottingham Township, Washington County.  OPn 5 December 1820 Samuel married Elizabeth, sister of Thomas Allison, a gunsmith, suggesting that McCosh may have apprenticed with Allison  [Rosenberger].  A rifle jointly signed by Mathias Ringle and Samuel McCosh suggests that Ringle was an apprentice or journeyman in the employ of one of two gunsmiths named Samuel McCosh.  The U.S. Census of 1850 listed Samuel McCosh (53), gunsmith, with land valued at $2000, with Elizabeth (45), his wife; and these children: Nancy Jane (17), Sarah E (9), Allison ( and Eliz (11) and Mary J McFadden (9), all born in Pennsylvania; living in Collins Township, Allegheny County.  In 1860 the U.S. Census showed Samuel McCosh (64), a farmer, with $2200 in land and $300 in personal value; Elizabeth (58), his wife; and Sarah (20) in Collins Township.  Samuel McCosh the elder was on the tax lists of Collins Township from 1850 through 1868.  There was nothing of interest to us in his will or estate as he was a farmer in his last years.

Samuel McCosh the younger.  gunsmith.  Samuel McCosh the younger was listed in the tax rolls of Nottingham Township, Washington County in 1835 and 1836.  He was listed in the Directory of Pittsburgh and Allegheny Cities of 1849 and 1857 58 at 22 Diamond, Pittsburgh.  It is believed that he was a nephew of the first Samuel McCosh. In the U.S. Census of Industry of 1850 Samuel McCosh, gunsmith, was in the fifth ward, Pittsburgh.  He had $100 capital investment.  Over the previous twelve months he had bought 100 gun barrels and other parts for $500 and had made rifles and guns valued at $1500.  He employed one hand at $22 a month.  From 1862 through 1890 he was back in Washington County.  The U.S. Census of 1870 showed Samuel McCosh (56), gunsmith, with land valued at $1500 and $250 in personal value; with Nancy (39), Lydia Jane (20) and John (15), a farm laborer; all born in Pennsylvania.  They were living in Union Township, Washington County.  The U.S. Census of 1880 listed Samuel McCosh (67), gunsmith, with Nancy (47) his sister; living in Union Township, Washington County.  Samuel's shop was located in Gastonville, just west of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad crossing.  There are no records that show when or where Samuel McCosh the younger died.  Dr. Jim Herron recalls knowing an elderly gentleman who, in his youth, remembered McCosh as an old man, living in Gastonville, but did not know where or when McCosh died.