Author Topic: Gravers  (Read 17053 times)

Offline Captchee

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2014, 05:17:06 AM »
Now Jerry ;D,,,, we have went down this road before lol compared to the Lindsey the GRS is a pinto  ., if  the Lindsey is good enough to be used by the likes of  Coggan ,Cover,Bleile and /or Baptiste, what does that say  :D.

 you and i both know that the GRS buzzes like an old Johnny tractor . needs springs to work properly and has to have its own GRS specific  regulating box  taking up space on the bench like some life suport mechine  .. LOL . Just yanking your chain .

 Hope to see you up at Durkee this coming weekend .
 Missed you at Seneca ,.you about done with that set of barrels  ??
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 05:34:09 AM by Captchee »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2014, 03:21:30 PM »
I use aluminum handles because they are light, and transmit the force well. Steel handles are so heavy, they take a lot of hit to get them moving, so you lose a percentage of control.

The one-piece die sinker chisels are very good, by the way. Slip a grip of surgical tubing over the shank, for a a softer feel, less fatigue.


I agree with Jerry that most American work is hammer and chisel.

This Kuntz patchbox appears to be push graved for shading. Maybe Hammer/chisel for the bolder lines. It's quite crude by today's standard, but does the job with beauty and grace. There is a a lot of 'folk' factor in American Kentucky graving, and it's good to keep in mind that people like you and me were making these works. These were men, not gods.
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Offline Captchee

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2014, 06:02:19 PM »
Quote
agree with Jerry that most American work is hammer and chisel.

This Kuntz patchbox appears to be push graved for shading. Maybe Hammer/chisel for the bolder lines. It's quite crude by today's standard, but does the job with beauty and grace. There is a a lot of 'folk' factor in American Kentucky graving, and it's good to keep in mind that people like you and me were making these works. These were men, not gods.


I would agree Acer . however frankly even rather crude by period standards . 
Still never the less , appealing  in its context.
 That however is the point I was trying to make  in that  at least for me , I have found it very hard to   keep to that  crudeness. Its not the design  but the actual cut  which IMO plays just as much  of a factor.
Take the Kuntz  piece that you posted . Imo wonderful context and layout .
 But the cut  itself wouldn’t pass  near anything . there are areas that show  moderate control and others that show no control . There just is a whole lot  that  we strive not to do  as we define quality .
 That IMO is the hard part, if one is truly trying to recreate  the type of engravings often seen on these rifles  is to not  exceed the  quality of work . Which can be very hard to do considering many of us take most every aspect to a much greater level then  a great many of the originals .

 I think also that a lot of times folks get the impression that  high end work can only be achieved with  high end tools like the Lindsey or GRS . that’s just not true.
 Even today a lot of those simply magnificently detailed works  are done with chase and push gravers .

 No mater what one uses though , it still comes down to practice , knowledge and the application of both  with the tools one has .
 Speaking for myself , I don’t think there has ever been a time I have not learned something from talking with Jerry  even though he uses a different tool then I , the principles are still much the same.
 He uses a GRS  , I didn’t like the GRS . I mostly use the different sharpening templates  that Steve  sells. Jerry prefers  to  chose his own angles . When I look at his work first hand  and ask about a given cut , how it was done , he is always good  for an answer . So I try  his approach  with the tool I use  be it my Lindsey classic , chase or push .   
Some times I get good results , other times I have to annoy him some more on the subject LOL . 
 I think however we are getting somewhat away from the original question


Offline smart dog

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2014, 06:32:56 PM »
Hi Moleeyes,
A few years ago I posted the following thoughts on learning to engrave.  You may find them helpful:


A couple of recent threads posed by folks trying to get started with engraving motivated me to start this thread.  For most people, engraving probably is one of the most intimidating skills to learn.  You get everything just right on your gun, the inletting, architecture, inlays, carving, and finish, and then risk it all trying to scratch in a few attractive lines.  Unfortunately, the books and videos available are somewhat helpful but their value is pretty limited.  If you are lucky to have access to a class with a good instructor, that is probably the best option.  If you are like me, your options for training are limited and you end up mostly teaching yourself.  Also, the intimidating nature of engraving tends to make folks reluctant to spend much money on it when they begin because they are not sure they can do it and they don’t want to waste limited funds.  Consequently, the perceived difficulty of engraving becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for some because they don’t invest money in the critical rudiments and thus find it too hard to do and give up trying.  With that in mind, I thought I would share a few observations about the process of learning to engrave: 

Don’t get hung up on the tools.  You only need a large square graver for outlining and borders, a small square for shading and details, and a small flat for removing backgrounds.  You can make chisel handles and a lightweight chasing hammer will do.  Spend some money on a good setup for sharpening.  I recommend stones and the Lindsay templates but there are other options.  Just make sure you have a system that does the job well and is easy to do.  You must sharpen your graver very, very often and the last thing you need is some awkward setup that makes sharpening a tedious chore.  It should just take a few moments with little fuss or you simply won't do it when you should.

Spend some thought and money on lighting and magnification.  You cannot engrave what you cannot see.  You must see the tip of the graver clearly or you will never engrave details very well.  In addition, create a vise system that allows you to spin the work and tilt it as needed.  Lighting, magnification, and a vise system are very important and unless you spend the time and resources on obtaining some workable version of them, engraving will be intimidating indeed. 

Don't try to do scroll work until you master engraving a line that is even and straight.  Practice thin and thick lines that follow a border or another line.  Master parallel lines and the thick and thin border.  In fact, if you never do anything more than a thick and thin border you will have achieved a lot. That border is often all you need to make an inlay, lock, butt plate, or trigger guard look like a million bucks. 

After mastering lines, try scolls, but first learn to draw them smoothly and transfer your designs to the metal.  Here is where a problem arises.  First, if you cannot draw a smooth curve or good design, you cannot engrave it either.  Second, you need a precise image of your design on the metal.  Many buy layout white or Chinese white, coat the metal and draw the design on with a pencil.  Probably most of you are not steady enough to draw a smooth clean design without "sketching" it with the pencil.  Sketching results in fuzzy imprecise lines that are difficult to follow accurately with the graver because the width of the sketched pencil mark is several times the width of the engraved line.  The imprecision of the line is often enough to make your engraved results look rough.  If you draw directly on the metal, use a very sharp pencil for a thin line and practice drawing smooth shapes without resorting to "sketching" them. I suggest that you use a mechanical pencil with 0.3mm leads sharpened to a tiny point using sand paper or a fine file.  Better are the transfer solutions available to copy images from transparencies produced by inkjet or laserjet printers.  Keep in mind, that after having a sharp graver and learning to cut a smooth line, nothing improves your engraving more than a good design accurately transferred to the metal. 

At first don't worry about fancy cuts, angling the graver for making lines grow thick, removing background and other sophisticated methods and skills.  Just learn to cut smooth lines of even thickness.  If you master that and can draw designs well you will produce engraving equal to or probably better than the vast majority of work found on original long rifles.  Finally, there are many technical details and methods to eventually absorb, but the few things I mentioned are the key things that I found really mattered as I learned and continue to learn.   

dave


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Offline JTR

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2014, 07:35:34 PM »
I'd like to toss out a reminder that original longrifles were made to be admired just as a common rifle is now days, held in the hands at arms length.
 
The picture that acer posted is section of the patchbox finial, and as shown is about 5 or 10 times larger than actual size. If you were to shrink that picture down to about a 2" X 2" size and hold it about 18" away from your eyes, it would look pretty good! And that would be about the way it was made to be viewed.

Now days it's popular to crank up the magnification to study the tiniest of detail, but these old guns weren't made with that expectation. For that matter, have you ever examined a fancy engraved 19th century Colt or Winchester done by any of the Very Best engravers, under magnification? Basically it looks like they used a Caterpillar tractor to ram their tool through the metal! But the engraving looks fine at arms length...

So what the heck, the old guys weren't as good as the modern guys? Yeah, okay. And the great guys today won't be as good as tomorrows great guys either...

So Molee, you have a lot of good advice here and various ways to go. Personally I'd keep it simple for now. A good first lesson is to cut a straight line, keeping width and depth consistent. And mastering just that is important in the long run..   

John

   
John Robbins

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2014, 07:53:51 PM »
Capchee
  It is true that a lot of top engravers use the Lindsey system and it is a good system but I highly suspect they may receive some incentive and I am pretty sure that is not all they use because there is some things it just isn't as  good at as some other hand pieces are. I have a airtact and it is basically the same as the Lindsey. I seldom use it. I have the option of three different hand pieces and a rotary plus an air oulet. All that being said nobody on this forum will probably ever do the stuff I do.
  AND you better be real sharp at Durkey or I'll clean your clock on the rifle trail.  

« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 08:32:51 PM by jerrywh »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2014, 08:37:28 PM »
Make things to the best of your ability. You will find over time your skills increase with practice and determination. Keep a photo journal of your work, and you will see improvement year by year. You can't be good at something just because you want to be. ( I suffer from this affliction) It takes dedication and PRACTICE.

The next most important thing in engraving is education. Some things are so difficult to learn/teach by the typed word. Get yourself some hands on, person-to-person teaching. In 2007, I took a ten day engraving course with Jerry, and it changed my engraving life, opened up a whole new world. Best investment I ever made in my own education. GRS offers courses, Lindsay may as well, and there are other engravers, such as Sam Alfano who teach.

As far as 'dumbing down' the engraving, I think we do a disservice to our forebears. I try to emulate the style of what I think is right for a certain gun, for the culture, and the time period. I also fit some of my own character and creative into the project. In this way, I feel I honor the past and honor my own needs.

For me, Jerry's most important lesson was to learn and understand how to sharpen and maintain a cutter. Period.
With that comes different geometries for cutting different materials, and styles of cutters for producing a certain kind of line for the effect you wish to have in your engraving.

In short, if you want to get serious about this, get some hands on education.

 :D :D :D
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Sawatis

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2014, 08:47:20 PM »
Make things to the best of your ability. You will find over time your skills increase with practice and determination. ...

The next most important thing in engraving is education. Some things are so difficult to learn/teach by the typed word. Get yourself some hands on, person-to-person teaching.
I'd say Acer nailed it here.  I fought with engraving for ...decades...Talking with Mike Miller one time, he recommended I go and do a engraving course like the NMLRA holds...I did and spending a week with Wallace pointing out nuances ...and how in blazes to sharpen a graver!... made the difference.  Wallace commented that after the course and doing 20 minutes of graving or so a day for a few months you could engrave as well as most of the 18th century masters...I think that point was reiterated here on the board...these guys were gun makers not professional photoplate engravers. 
Practice and determination ...and a little help from your friends...goes a long way to giving you confidence.
John

Offline Captchee

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2014, 11:50:48 PM »
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AND you better be real sharp at Durkey or I'll clean your clock on the rifle trail.  




ohhh its on old man !!!!! be sur to bring your meds , i dont want to here any exscusses or crying  ;D
 bring you sxs and we will shot some clays to

 that one of the nicest barrels i have seen you do Jerry . nicly done
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 11:51:40 PM by Captchee »

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2014, 05:22:04 PM »
I noticed that once I started trying to engrave that when I was studying an antique piece I became more aware of the individual cuts rather than the overall pattern. This, in association with having seen some examples of fine engraving, can make historical engravings appear rather crude. The 18th century customer most likely had not been exposed to some of the European pieces, especially in a frontier area gun shop, so it was not the issue that can be with us. Also, in a era prior to the industrial revolution, handwork which is filled with abberations, was the norm so a less than perfect execution was not as much of an issue. Since we do this as a hobby, and in a few rare cases a profession we tend to be unsatisfied with anything short of perfection. That can produce some outstanding rifles, but in reality they are not necessarily historically correct.

The bottom line is that engraving does not have to be perfect to be right. Neither does it have to be extensive. It can be suprising how just a few scratches can transform an otherwise plain surface into something more.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2014, 07:05:57 PM »
 PeteG,
 In America there was very little market for perfection. Some people are born who are never satisfied with anything less than perfection. Thank God for that. What kind of world would we have otherwise
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Gravers
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2014, 07:13:55 PM »
Some folks really want quality, and others are happy with a little 'bling'.
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