Author Topic: fffg vs ffg  (Read 9686 times)

Offline WKevinD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1428
fffg vs ffg
« on: August 06, 2014, 03:33:58 PM »
As I ask this I'm sure this must have been discussed already but here goes.
I am a "from the bag and horn shooter" and regularly prime and load with fffg in all my rifles and smooth bores.  I have used this granulation in my .40 cal. thru .75 cal. I even use it in my morter (2.75" bore).
I usually buy my powder in 25lb lots and to keep it simple get it all fffg.
I think my priming with fffg absorbs less moisture than ffffg when hunting with no discernible timing difference.
 My loads and patch combinations are worked up for accuracy with hunting in mind.
I know the standard calls for ffg in over .50... but why? Am I missing something? Is the concern for pressures developed? Is this a concern with modern barrels?
Kevin
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Virginiarifleman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2014, 04:01:50 PM »
Burnt, I have used FFFG granulation in my 54 Caliber for 30 yrs with no issues, as for the granulation charts im sure pressures are a factor.

Offline Standing Bear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2014, 04:29:16 PM »
I use FFg for a main charge in everything from .32 thru shot guns and including revolvers and flint pistols.  2 independent chronograph studies showed a smaller deviation in muzzle velocity over 100 rounds using FF vs FFF. 

Neither of these were published but I know both of the individuals doing the tests.  Best known is probably the late Tom Gillman of Hot Springs, AR.  Before he started shooting MLs he set world records in CF Bench Rest with guns he built using calibers he designed   One I specifically recall was .192" ctc at 200 yard so this is no neophyte.  As Tom got into. ML he approached it as systematically as he did everything else.  One of which was to determine what powder he would use in matches thru the chronograph test mentioned.  Tom went on to win many state, territorial and national matches and aggregates with ML.

Like you, I keep it simple buying only one brand and granulation for main charge.

I use FFFF for priming as I still have a pound and a half on hand.  I have tried 7F and null B when others gave me some to try but saw no reason to get another priming powder till the FFFF is low.  Besides, Gillman used FFFF and if it was good enough for him, well.....

Minimize variables
TC
 
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

http://texasyouthhunting.com/

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15832
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2014, 06:48:54 PM »
Well presented TC.

Taylor and I have been using 2f in .45's and above since the 70's and see no reason to switch to 3F. 3F's (seemingly) quick rise in pressure IS harder on the patches integrity, tends to cause burn-through in loads producing the same speeds as 2F yet no burn through with the larger charges of 2F.  This along may or may not be the reason for shot to shot variations on the large side when suing 3F.
We've always found 2f to give better accuracy - yet others say not - however they seem to be wipers - constantly, due to poor ball and patch fit.
Be that as it may- I invite all whom I have to shoot against, to use 3F - please do.

My .40 and .45 barrels duplicate speeds and accuracy of their 3F loads if I use 10gr.. more 2f than 3F and No- those loads no not shoot dirtier - they all load easily, shot after shot after shot after shot - 20, 50, 80, or 100 without wiping - the number does not matter.
I did not pursue the loads further than duplications as I was happy with the accuracy with 3F. Perhaps some further testing is overdue?
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline WKevinD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1428
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2014, 07:47:47 PM »
OK -faster burn rate- faster pressure gain rate leading to patch burn out or tear up could make sense.
Please understand I'm not trying to advocate one powder type over another, just trying to understand the reasons for one over the other.
I shoot informally and for hunting so I look at consistency, ease of use and clean-up as priority's.
Kevin 
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2014, 01:30:07 AM »
Some folks develop FF and FFF loads for many of their rifles, and that's my plan.  To give both a go in nearly every gun.  I hunted with FFF in a 54 last Fall, but now that i been able to shoot more, am working on FF loads for it yet.

No problem priming with FF either.  My FFFF may last forever, hoo nose?
Hold to the Wind

galamb

  • Guest
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2014, 01:31:35 AM »
I shoot FFF for a far more practical, but non-scientific reason.

I have to drive minimally 3 hours to get my powder. On a couple of occasions years back they had no FF in stock when I got there (the alternative was hefty Hazmat fees to have it shipped).

Just so I don't have to rework loads, aim points etc etc, I shoot FFF which I have always been able to get on my twice annual "pilgrimage" to my powder supplier.

On a second note, I now rarely shoot anything larger than a 45 cal with my 40 being my "everyday" rifle. I will be replacing that soon (when Charlie Burton gets my new barrel made) with a 38 cal. Given that I see no situation or condition where I would even want FF.

If I can not get FFF Goex I shoot Pyrodex P as my "second" choice.

Offline Candle Snuffer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 573
  • Traditional Muzzle Loading, Powder, Patch & Ball
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2014, 03:43:26 AM »
I think we all have our own reasons for what number powder grain we shoot.  I like the performance of 2f over 3f for target shooting to include .40 caliber through .54 in my cap lock rifles, and I opt for 3f in my .45 & .50 caliber flintlock rifles.  I expect after 40 years I'm not about to change. :)
Snuffer
Chadron Fur Trade Days

Offline SCLoyalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2014, 05:09:41 AM »
Small bores, e.g. those .40 cal and under, might benefit from less fouling (easier loading and more shots before swabbing) using 3F rather than 2F.   3F in a big bore (e.g. .54) may foul less, but the felt recoil is a bit sharper (which may correspond to more chance of patch failure others have suggested).  The dividing line for calibers versus 2F/3F is rather arbitrary.

Seems like I read somewhere that back in the old days, cannon powder granules were about the size of corn kernals,  musket powder was roughly what we'd call 1F,   and rifle & pistol powder corresponded to 2F.    Much powder making was local industry  (e.g. Davy Crockett's Lawrenceburg TN mill on Shoal Creek)so the powder produced may not have followed our modern conventions for screening granule size or labeling.   If your horn was near empty, you bought whatever was available and were happy to have it.


Offline George Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 755
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2014, 06:09:22 PM »
IMHO, if ffg did what fffg did there would be no need for fffg. If ffg or fffg was as efficient as ffffg there would be no need for ffffg or null-b.  ;D

Centershot

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15832
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2014, 07:31:24 PM »
All true - as Wade noted, it is good to have accuracy loads for all your rifles in both 2f and 3F- record that data, so you know if you run into a situation where you can only get or have in stock, one or the other.
note also, it takes more 2f to give the same speed and therefore usually the same accuracy as with 3F. Note also, accuracy loads change with changes in lube.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2014, 08:01:20 PM »
Quote
If ffg or fffg was as efficient as ffffg there would be no need for ffffg or null-b.
So, they mill the powder and then run it thru screens.  Each screen is a different granulation and null-b is the dust they vacuum off the floor.

The question is, do they actually make all granulations simultaneously and then just market them as different granulations for pure economic reasons, as well as giving folks something to argue about.

Quote
it takes more 2f to give the same speed and therefore usually the same accuracy as with 3F.
Not true.  2F will often give a higher velocity in a given gun.  3F ignites more suddenly and achieves maximum velocity closer to the breech end of the gun.  thereafter, the friction of the bore might retard velocity.  2F burns more slowly and continues to accelerate the projectile further up the bore, thus achieving a higher velocity.  Also, I would postulate that a faster twist barrel would retard velocity thru friction.  Shotguns are notorious for achieving higher velocities with larger granulations.  N'est-ce pas
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5335
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2014, 10:07:03 PM »
I mostly use 3F for everything from .32 to .62 and have no problems or regrets.  Keeps things simple, too.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Kopfjaeger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 403
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2014, 03:40:09 AM »
I mostly use 3F for everything from .32 to .62 and have no problems or regrets.  Keeps things simple, too.



ditto, I do the same
" A godly man and his rifle deprive sleep from the wicked, A christian man who prays is the defeater of evil, A praying man who will fight is the conqueror of nations and the hope of the oppressed "

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15832
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2014, 06:37:05 PM »
Quote
it takes more 2f to give the same speed and therefore usually the same accuracy as with 3F.
Not true.  2F will often give a higher velocity in a given gun.  3F ignites more suddenly and achieves maximum velocity closer to the breech end of the gun.  thereafter, the friction of the bore might retard velocity.  2F burns more slowly and continues to accelerate the projectile further up the bore, thus achieving a higher velocity.  Also, I would postulate that a faster twist barrel would retard velocity thru friction.  Shotguns are notorious for achieving higher velocities with larger granulations.  N'est-ce pas

Theory is great but sometimes doesn't work.  We did a quickly test once with a 20 bore vs. .62 rifle. In every instance, the rifle and smoothbore either gave the same velocity or higher velocity to the rifle, I assume due to more complete or more efficient burning of the powder.   Forsythe wrote that a slow twist of smooth gun gave higher velocity, which is why we did that test.  His theory was proved to be incorrect in our test - with the guns & loads we used. This may have been due to out powder vs. the powders of 1850?  Perhaps "back then", the smooth guns developed higher speeds. Too- we tightly patch our ball loads in the smoothbore. If they are not tightly patched, they whoooosh instead of 'crack', showing loosely patching or no patching does not improve speed.

Dave, I disagree.. Every one of my guns, from .32 to .69 give higher speeds with 3F than with the same amount of 2F.  There may be a limit, ie; where the 2f charge exceeds the 3F in speed, but I have not seen it.  I do realize or know that when producing the same speed as a given charge of 3F, the 2f load is producing less peak pressure - Lyman showed this in their book.
They also showed that it took more 2F to match the velocity given by 3F.
   
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Kermit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2014, 06:45:00 PM »
I like my old Lyman book too, Daryl. Been referring to it for a few decades now...
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline J Henry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2014, 07:57:43 PM »
  When I started to shoot BP I had no EXperts to ask so I just read,tried and put my head down and just kept coming,,,,,I try something,, if it works, I keep it, if not I don't.
   I shoot FFF in all 45/50/54, works just fine so I kept it..Now 47 years later I read/am told/shown ,it will not/shouldn't work,,,,
 all the testing,,where/when /by who makes a difference???? It isn't Rocket Surgery,
   Shooting my underhammer this week end working on a load that might work for deer season this year,,FFF in a 45 with PRB, with per lubed manufactured patches....sure hope I don't find out it won't work..
 Candle Snuffer got it correct..be doing it to long this way to change now.. Life is easier if you plow around the stumps!!!!

Offline Kopfjaeger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 403
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2014, 05:38:20 AM »
J Henry I love that saying " Life is easier if you plow around the stumps "  I'm going to use that one on my nephews.
" A godly man and his rifle deprive sleep from the wicked, A christian man who prays is the defeater of evil, A praying man who will fight is the conqueror of nations and the hope of the oppressed "

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15832
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2014, 06:29:16 PM »
J Henry- no one said 3F wouldn't work - you can shoot 3F in a .75 calibre rifle if you want - it will go off and with lighter loads, probably shoot quite well. It's just that 2F is likely to shoot more accurately, is easier on the patch because it produces less pressure at any given velocity.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline J Henry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2014, 07:34:26 PM »
Daryl,, I just reduce the charge by 10 % and go for it..  Good hunting!!!
  WTLB : My Gram was quick to say,, " Don't judge someone,,just cause they sin different than you"..
      See you up the trail, if your in the lead,,,,don't spit...
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 07:42:35 PM by J Henry »

Vomitus

  • Guest
Re: fffg vs ffg
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2014, 09:12:27 PM »
   As old Chief Dan George said,"endeavor to persevere."  I believe that ANY rifle can shoot accurately with either granulation. If you do the work with either, a good load for your rifle can be found. My 44"  "A" weight .40  shoots 50grains of 2f Goex,.395 RB,.022patch, a good lube...accurately (for me,of course) all day long. I didn't have any 3f so used what I had...and it worked!  ;D