Picket bullets

[Daryl]

Dan - Yes - turned for a guide starter for sure.  For others here who are interested but without any experience in this, if it doesn't have locater pinholes for a false muzzle, then guide starter and plunger looks to be THE tool for this barrel.  The pins of a false muzzle of course, would create a more accurate fit than something sliding down the side of the barrel.

 Good suggestion on 'filling' a round, snug fitting guide with epoxy or pewter - I suppose most metal bearing epoxies would work, like Devcon or J*B Weld.  Dang - I shouldn't be getting wound up over shooting bullets in my .40.  Making a guide starter of bronze or hard brass would work on an octagonal barrel as long as the points of the flats are a press fit on the bore of the starter body.

The .018" depth of rifling is a puzzle, when only .008" to .010" would work find.  This 'extra' depth suggests a fairly small bullet, maybe .005 to .010" under bore size and heavier patch.  The guide with wide rounded dome 'striker' would be necessary for starting a bore-sized picket with heavy patch- but then, I load and shoot balls .002" larger than my .40's bore with .0215" denim patches- measurement comes out to .443 in a .422" groove depth.  This loads fairly easy once started. One smack with the flat end of my starter puts it level with the crown.  A .40 with .018" depth rifling would be easier due to larger groove diameter - in a true .400" bore and that rifling, the groove depth is .436", still .007" compression in the grooves or .0035 per side.  Have you tried this sort of combo with pickets your Reinhard, Dan?  The patching is 10 pound Denim @ .0215" thickness on my mic., measured dry.  I always use the mic, now as it gives consistant results - my calipers don't.

[Dan]

You could be right about that Daryl.  I haven't tried a "smaller" yet but intend to.  The rifle is magic with round balls.....

I've a temporary guide starter made of nylon and aluminum.  It works well enough but there are bullet fit issues IMO.  There are two current renderings:  .380" and .400" diameter, both of the belted design.  The rifle's bore is .388" and groove .424". Obviously the smaller starts easier but both can be started with a hard whack over .015" patch. The smaller of the two does OK with .020" patch but I cannot start the larger with that.  I can start both w/o tearing patches but they have stability issues. Bullet length is ~.5" for the smaller and .6" for the larger.  The stability problems are equally inconsistent for both bullets, some keyhole and some do not.  Twist is 1:38, RH.

'Tis a puzzle waiting for a solution.

[Daryl]

Dan - I sent a personal message to you - nothing bad.

[Dan]

Got it and thanks.  One of my next endeavors will include the use of a card or felt wad...or both.

[Curt J]

I have always been interested in experimenting with picket bullets too, since I own quite a number of original rifles that are turned for a guide bullet starter, and were intended to use them. It's too bad the original moulds are almost never with these rifles, it would answer a lot of questions and eliminate a lot of guesswork. All of the picket rifles I have are by Midwestern makers, mostly Illinois and Iowa. Most of  them are cut with gain-twist rifling. This seems to have been the norm for picket bullet rifles in this part of the country. A number of the gunmakers mentioned gain-twist or "increase-twist" rifling in their ads. They were shooting matches with them at 40 and 80 rods (220 and 440 yards) during the 1850's. Several of mine are .50 caliber or larger.

Making a nice traditional guide bullet starter is not all that much work. I have made several of them. It's about one evening's work, if you have a decent lathe.

[Dphariss]

I have a pretty good lathe and it took me a few hours. But the tolerances are pretty tight.  Getting things that way makes for caution and extra time.

It seems to work and accuracy is better but probably not good enough 1-1 1/2" at 100 if the last load I used will stand proving with more shooting.
The Wyoming Schuetzen Union discusses such things. Pickets were widely used in percussion schuetzen rifles and other target shooting even after the slug gun came into use for LR target prior to the Civil War.

Dan

[Curt J]

I just counted....I have 45 original rifles that once had a guide bullet starter. Nine of them are percussion schuetzens.

[Daryl]

Sounds good to me, Dan. Hope it works out.  A 1" group will stay inside the 10 ring of most standard 100 yard targets.  The slightly improved wind-bucking abilities should show better at 200. When we look to the group sizes Ned talked about in this Scheutzen Rifles" book, you are ahead of the game, and they were using ctg. guns, breech seated many of them - with Swiss hooked butts, etc.

[Dphariss]

Have not been able to shoot since last report. Darned wind anyway.
But its down tonight. I should go cut some patches in case its good in the AM.

Dan
The gusts are down to 17 mph now.

[Daryl]

THAT is a good looking starter.

[Dphariss]

I shot this group Cody yesterday at 100 yards using 80 grains of FFG Swiss. The "flier" is the first shot after shooting 9 shots with the 70 grain load putting the rifle in the pickup not cleaned to prevent excess cooling. Then bringing it to the line after changing targets. Preparing the bore as usual it put shot one at 11 oclock and the second at 8:30 edge of the red then it settled down???
It does seem to shoot better with 80 grains. I increased the powder after talking to SPG and Robbie about picket rifles since it did not seem to respond to sight changes with 70 as it should.
But with 80 it shoots high at 100 and I could not get it centered vertically since the sight bottomed out. Some wind that increased through the string.
The 24 ring hole on the target is from goofing my cleaning process, or overthinking it and the shot went low.
I should have held low but with the aperture front its not really an option for me with a red target. And I was not aware this was going to be scored string measure and likely published
I was the only one shooting in picket class it turned put.
I will say this there was enough wind that a 40 RB would have been pretty random.
But its still not very good for the sights used and the historical references. Historical references say it should be possible to shoot 3-4" at 220 yards (40 rods) with no wind with a picket. But this bullet is a little light. It should weigh 180-200 grains instead of 135. Will try swaging some longer slugs and try to get it 160 or so and see if it works. Might be awhile. A gun writer friend has not shot a shot at targets since November due to wind he lives about 40 miles to the west and has a heated shooting house.
Dan

[Daryl]

I find red target bulls very difficult to see with apertures. The holes re 'point-on' and round which is good - that part is working well.  I expect the 80gr. charge might be 'telling' on the nipple hole in time - maybe short time.  Perhaps it's time to try different lubes, although clean shooting is clean shooting.

[Dphariss]

Hi Daryl
Everyone doing this shoots with platinum lined nipples.
Most 40 cal picket rifles tend to use powder charges in the 70-80 range.
Patch lubes are the next game to play.
May try SPG lube but its too stiff for cold weather.
Neatfoot is another.
I will also likely lap this barrel again as well. I still loads a little hard and it makes it difficult to get uniform pressure on the powder.
I should make up an entirely different rifle that weighs 12-15 pounds in 38-40 caliber but that requires a new barrel, breech, lock (or action) etc etc. Not sure I am THAT enthused.
Gotta run.
Dan

[Daryl]

As to lapping, if you're going to do that, might as well lapp in a choke of a couple thou. It sure helped my .50 Bauska barrel for shooting short bullets.  I'm sure it was 12L14 or something like that - leaded steel, anyway - easy cutting. Only took a couple hours of work- but I was a but younger and more enthusiastic 32 years ago.

[Curt J]

Here is a guide bullet starter I made for a BRUNKER & BUSCHICK OTTAWA ILL rifle in my collection. The body is steel, with the plunger and knob made of brass. The majority of originals I have seen were this way, although some are all brass and some are made entirely of steel with a brass tip on the plunger. Some also have wooden knobs, so there is plenty of room to use your imagination.

[Dphariss]

As to lapping, if you're going to do that, might as well lapp in a choke of a couple thou. It sure helped my .50 Bauska barrel for shooting short bullets.  I'm sure it was 12L14 or something like that - leaded steel, anyway - easy cutting. Only took a couple hours of work- but I was a but younger and more enthusiastic 32 years ago.

I lapped this one till it felt pretty good. It came with a slight choke anyway.

A longer ram on the starter would be good too. Have lots of 7/16 brass rod so I may make a longer one. Or extend the one I have.
AK trip is not completely "on" yet.

Dan

[Daryl]

Looking good, Curt. The farther down into the bore, the better, I think as the loading rod will centre better on the nose of the bullet.