Author Topic: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Richard Allen Clinton County, GA  (Read 5927 times)

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Richard Allen Clinton County, GA
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2009, 07:36:16 PM »
  This is a wonderful iron mounted longrifle, and one that serves us well to demonstrate that these iron mounted guns were just as varied in style as any others. I find that many longrifle enthusiasts are unaware of this diversity, and I really appreciate that my friend who owns this rifle allowed these photos to be shared here.
  There is a small yet interesting point overlooked in the information on the rifle that the owner asked me to include in this post. In the first photograph, looking at the trigger guard near the tip of the rear trigger, you can see a fat spot in the guard itself. This is the area where a small spur piece would have been welded in to complete the bow of the guard. This construction technique is not uncommon in pretty much all areas of the South where iron mounted guns were being made.
   Also of interest, in the included census information it appears that this was not Richard Allen's only rifle , but to my knowledge it is the only one known either signed or attributed to him. This could be a good topic for discussion - I wonder where they all went? On one hand considering the time frame one might expect to have other existing examples, but perhaps there are other factors to consider?

  A wonderful rifle and of course having the whole set makes it such a rare find. So happy to see it here, thank you

Offline G-Man

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Re: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Richard Allen Clinton County, GA
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2009, 03:37:27 AM »
They don't come any finer than that set.  Once again -another great piece that most of us have never seen because it isn't in the well known books, but really has it all, doesn't it?

There's a lot to take in on this one - I will be looking at this set for a long time.

As to other rifles by Allen - I think we are just beginning to scratch the surface understanding the "who, when, where" on the iron mounted Appalachian rifles and there are a lot of surprises to be had - I think a lot of iron mounted guns are automatically attributed to southwestern Virginia, Tennessee, or western North Carolina by  default, but were possibly made in other areas - Kentucky,  Georgia, Southern Ohio, and other nearby areas.  The patchbox on the Allen rifle is very similar to some that I have seen attributed to other states  - let's hope some more of his guns have survived tucked away somewhere, and will be rightfully attributed and brought to light.

Guy
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 12:23:19 AM by Guy Montfort »

Offline WElliott

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Re: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Richard Allen Clinton County, GA
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 12:01:48 AM »
When I started collecting longrifles 30+ years ago, and expressed to others my interest in Georgia material, some folks kidded me that surely you just look for the ugliest poboy in the room to find a Georgia rifle.  Now, with the increasing knowledge we have of the amazing work of Higgins and Allen thanks to the scholarship of my friend Arnie Dowd and the late great researcher, Dan Wallace (and Steve B's sharp eye), we know better. Thank you, gentlemen!
Wayne Elliott
Georgia
Wayne Elliott

Offline RobertS

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Re: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Richard Allen Clinton County, GA
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 03:55:26 AM »
My parents are both from North GA, so I was kind of interested in where this rifle might have been made, relative to where my ancestors lived, and can't find a Clinton County listed in the state of Georgia.  Would anyone happen to know why?  Maybe it existed at one time, but is no more?   ( I reread the text at the museum listing, and noticed it shows Clinton Township, Jones County, GA, which explains it.  I guess I answered my own question.  Anyway, great rifle with a lot of style, thanks for sharing it!)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 03:57:29 AM by RobertS »

Offline G-Man

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Re: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Richard Allen Clinton County, GA
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2009, 05:48:13 PM »
Mr. Pratt and I were discussing this one some more.  4-piece patchboxes on iron mounted guns are rare; engraved ones rarer still, as are piercings on iron patchboxes.  Ususally, the box outlines are simple geometric shapes and if engraved, usually folky, geometric borders, etc. 

This is the only iron mounted gun we can recall seeing that has the patchbox with offset side panels with wood showing between the lid and the panels.  This feature crops up a lot on brass mounted Golden Age guns from other regions, but I've not seen another iron patchbox that was quite this elaborate.  Have any of you guys seen others like this?

Really just an extraordinary piece.

Guy
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 05:52:45 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline Ken G

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Re: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Richard Allen Clinton County, GA
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2009, 06:04:57 PM »
Guy,
The whale gun comes to mind as a 4 piece patchbox on an iron mounted gun but the panels are not offset. 

I can't say that I have seen any others. 
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline WElliott

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Re: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Richard Allen Clinton County, GA
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2009, 04:22:24 AM »
Yes. in addition to the wonderful R. Allen rifle, the "whale" patchbox rifle, by Berryman Compton (Tennessee) and the only known iron-mounted rifle by Wiley Higgins (Georgia), do also have four-piece iron boxes. Unlike the Allen rifle, neither have offset panels.

Some folks would be surprised at how elaborate  Southern iron-mounted rifles sometimes are.  I have even heard people surmise that it was cheaper to use iron rather than brass and that is why the poor southerners often used iron.  I don't think so. In my opinion, it was a matter of personal taste and preference; a well made iron mounting often requiring more skill and time to produce than a brass casting.

Wayne Elliott
Wayne Elliott

Offline Ken G

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Re: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Richard Allen Clinton County, GA
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2009, 04:39:54 AM »
Wayne,
Do you think it is possible that some early TN rifles are misidentified because they have traits not commonly thought to be those of a TN or GA rifle?  Like a 4 piece patchbox?  I would have looked right over the Whale rifle as being a gun made in TN had you not pointed it out to me last year at the CLA show. 
Ken
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Offline G-Man

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Re: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Richard Allen Clinton County, GA
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2009, 06:34:03 PM »
Ken - I think it is a very strong likelihood that a lot of southern guns are mis-attributed (is that a word  ???).  I think that it is really hard to tell where a lot of the early  iron mounted guns  (by early I mean here roughly 1790s-1820) were made exactly.  And some of the early brass mounted pieces from the region beyond the mountains are really stunning - for example, the Thomas Simpson/ Mansker rifle and the Jacob Young rifles.

I think we also have to be aware of the other side of the coin on the possible attribution issue - i.e. plain iron mounted guns are usually assumed to be from the Tennessee or Virginia mountains, etc. but this is not always so.  I've recently been trying to learn more about an Ohio gunsmith named Jerman Jordan - the first rifle I ever saw by him was an iron mounted flint fullstock and I was struck by that it really has no traits of what most people would think of as an Ohio rifle - the guard is very close to the Joseph Bogle rifle and we know that piece is most likely Tennesee made.  Recently I've seen three more iron mounted flint fullstocks by him, two without buttplates - and at least one with a grease hole.  Where did Jordan pick up the style?  These were made in Ross County Ohio ca: 1815-30s probably - and I've seen no evidence that Jordan learned or worked in Tennesee or Virginia.  He also made really fine inlaid and engraved brass mounted guns too.  And Michael Briggs has posted some wonderful plain iron mounted pieces from North Carolina that were made a bit east of the mountains by gunsmiths who also worked in brass.  So as someone pointed out above I think it is wrong to assume that the plainness of most of the iron mounted pieces necesssarily represents a limitation of the gunmaker's skills, especially in the early period when most of the gunsmiths in the area learned their trade somehwere else before moving in and many probably were adept at working in iron or brass. 

Sort of converse to what one would assume from typical settlement patterns, once folks moved in and were settled in the Southern highlands in the late 1700s, many of the areas actually became increasingly isolated (that is, the settlement had passed by and there were not as many new influences moving in to some of these areas) in the early 19th century.  I do believe (again, this is just my opinion) that the isolation did later lead to more plain, but more highly stylized work - i.e. the mounts on the later Appalachian rifles of the post 1820 era tend to have their own fully evolved unique style, whereas the earlier pieces tend to have triggerguards that appear to be more or less attempts to mimic the styles of the brass mounted pieces being made farther north and east, probably where the gunsmiths trained.

I also think there are a lot of southern guns that simply have not been published (or at least not widely published as a group in a format like RCA or Kindig) so people do not have the basis of a group of examples for study and comparison so the study of these pieces is not nearly as far along as the more well known styles from Pennsylvania, or other parts of the south.  It is getting better - getting to see pieces like this one on the Virtual Museum are really eye-opening. 


Guy
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 06:37:12 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline WElliott

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Re: ALR Museum Gunsmith: Richard Allen Clinton County, GA
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2009, 10:19:22 PM »
Ken and Guy,
I absolutely agree that many rifles made in the South have been misidentified. We have much to learn.  For example, Kindig's rifle no. 145 was admittedly a puzzle to him.  He listed it as "possibly, J. Lowmaster" and commented that the rifle was a "Kentucky that is far superior artistically to any other Kentucky that I have seen of this period.  And the metal mounts are the finest that I remember seeing on any Kentucky of any period."  The clue was right in front of him, with the signature "Wiley G Higgins M.A" on the patchbox (a tradition sometimes followed in the South, vs. on the barrel top) and with a cartouche on the lockplate engraved "Dr. Joe A Davis".  We now know that Wiley G. Higgins M(aster) G(unsmith) worked in Georgia and that Dr. Davis was the  customer from the adjoining county for whom he made the rifle.  How many rifles with no identifying marks not been properly attributed or simply are unattributable?

And, as Guy points out, there are early brass mounted rifles from Tennessee, South Carolina and Georgia which are not recognized as such.  On the other hand, the Virginia and North Carolina collector/researchers have done an outstanding job of making us aware of the wide variety of material from their regions.

The Virtual Museum is very promising to let us see, and share, information - particularly about some of the unstudied or under-reported regions outside Pennsylvania.

Wayne
 
Wayne Elliott