Author Topic: Sea Service Pistol?  (Read 7774 times)

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Sea Service Pistol?
« on: October 13, 2014, 11:11:12 PM »
Hey Folks,
   
    I'm posting this in the hopes that some of the military collectors on the board can help me identify this piece.  At first glance I thought that it looked awfully similar to English long pattern sea service pistols, which is why I was interested.  The big picture is the same - it has a 12" barrel with bands filed at the breech, large English style furniture, single ramrod pipe, had a belt hook at one point, and same overall profile.  The details however are different:  The barrel has a rounded tang instead of square, is .75, with a 1 1/4" breech and no proof marks.  Initially I thought it was a shortened musket barrel, but it tapers too quickly for that.  Some idiot wirebrushed the iron parts at some point and spliced in a piece of mahogany - that will be remedied as time allows. 
 
    The lock has one faint stamp on the inside - it reminds me of German locks I’ve handled with similar sized illegible stamps.  The pan is detachable.  The internals of the lock definitely aren't French in style, nor do they have the robust crispness that every English lock I've handled has.  The lock parts all have two file notches in them to mark them as a set.  Looks like a civilian percussion conversion - and not used much after that given the condition of the steel and wood.

    The brass furniture has no markings at all - the triggerguard, buttcap, and thimble are sand cast with texture remaining in hidden parts.  The sideplate is about 3/32" thick, and the hole in the rear of it once held the pin to a belt hook.  I believe the sideplate is original to the gun, and not covering up an existing inlet for a more typical standard sea service style sideplate.  The front lock screw is a replacement, but the rear seems original.  None of the parts show any sign of being recycled from earlier guns - no double pin holes anywhere.  The inletting and overall assembly is a bit rougher than what I would expect on an English military gun.  The lock mortise is hogged out, and the inletting elsewhere is rough as well (but with no visible gaps from the outside).  The iron ramrod is a replacement for an original wood one, and has a stamp of a cross or a dagger, with a "5" below. 

    For the life of me I can’t tell whether it’s Euro or Black walnut – some parts are quote porous and dark (under the buttcap), while other areas seem to have fewer pores and be more like a blonde Euro walnut.  Has knots here and there too, and again no marks at all.  I haven't worked with enough walnut to be able to differentiate well enough yet. 

    So, what is it?  Could it be German, Dutch or Scandinavian and not have proof marks?  The overall quality reminds me of the fast produced muskets and other cobbled together arms made during the Rev-war period in the colonies.  The lack of proofs, Germanic lock, and shape of the sideplate also makes it feel somewhat American to me.  The fact that the parts aren't recycled though makes me think it's probably later and Northern European;  What do you think?  Please feel free to pass photos along to others you think may have some knowledge.  Thanks for your thoughts!
-Eric































Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline DaveM

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2014, 01:13:05 AM »
Pretty certain it is british model 1760 or later dragoon.  If you can get a copy of Bailey's patterns for small british arms they have similar examples with flat locks later in the 18th century and similar sideplate.  Cool

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2014, 03:22:40 AM »
 Never seen a British sea service that wasn't at least marked with proof marks.

              Hungry Horse

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2014, 03:50:39 AM »
Never seen a British sea service that wasn't at least marked with proof marks.

I don't think it is British, it's about the one place of origin I have ruled out as it has no proofs or stamps at all. 
Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2014, 03:52:30 AM »
Actually, it looks like a pistol that someone cobbled together from Miroku Sea Service pistol parts.  Some of the parts share similarities......even down to the chiseling under the buttcap.
Dave Kanger

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Online smart dog

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2014, 03:21:18 PM »
Hi Eric,
It is some sort of copy of a British pistol but it mixes models and the hardware is simplified.  The stock looks like a British sea service pistol with butt cap but the trigger guard and sideplate look like very simplified versions of the hardware used on the pistols and muskets issued to the Royal Foresters and 16th light dragoons in the 1770s. Dave (TOF) may be right about a modern repro.

dave
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Offline JTR

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2014, 08:47:51 PM »
I agree, modern made.
Sort of one of those mountain man / reinactor things.
John
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Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2014, 10:16:57 PM »
Thanks for everyone's thoughts so far - with respect, I believe that nothing (except perhaps the triggerguard) is modern made on this gun.  The pistol has had a lot of questionable and shoddy cleanup work done to it, but what the photos aren't showing well is the remnants of patina that once existed on all of the areas that weren't heavily scrubbed and refinished.  The buttcap and triggerguard are not the same as the Japanese knockoffs - the buttcap is substantially larger by about 1/2" in each direction, and though the triggerguard finial is similar, the rest could not have been filed from what exists on Japanese castings.  I am open to the possibility that the triggerguard could be a newer replacement - I've never seen one of this style that has a solid rear return instead of a split off spur. 

Here's some more information about the piece that photos can't show - I did some more close looking this morning:  The tang and rear long bolts are filed of wrought iron (has inclusions) and not any modern thread (27 1/2 TPI).  I should have added, the stock was certainly scrubbed, cleaned up, and a new coat of finish applied when the parts were wirebrushed - fools who do that make it tougher for us down the line to make good assessments - any good details were rounded off, as the "edges" are bright wood while recessed areas are still darker as they weren't subjected to as much sanding.  The inside of the barrel channel and lock mortise show the typical look of 200 year old uncleaned wood - essentially dry brown black, unfinished, dusty, several hairline cracks, and lots of grime.  The stock has a notch cut out behind the hammer to clear the flint cock - not necessary on something built as percussion piece.  The barrel has the same lengthwise texture and minute inclusions as other wrought barrels I've handled - it's not modern steel.  I'll try to get a photo of this if I can. 

Again, I appreciate your thoughts and ideas.  I'm setting aside any bias I have (I paid almost nothing for it) and am looking at it with a fresh set of eyes, but I'm still not seeing anything modern about it except the shoddy cleanup job sometime in the last few decades. 
-Eric

Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2014, 11:38:00 PM »
Eric, the lock plate strikes me as being of European origin--maybe French or Dutch? The way the old holes were filled during the conversion remind me of a French export pistol that I saw years ago. And the rough chisel work under the cap is similar, too.
                                               Dan

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2014, 02:51:22 AM »
Since I don't know anything about those pistols. The only comment I can add is, the picture fifth from bottom, the little of the barrel channel you can see looks pretty old.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 02:52:20 AM by Avlrc »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2014, 03:46:35 AM »
 It could be a privately made sea service type pistol made for the East India Company, one of the other British governments covert enterprises. Most of the ones I've seen had property stamps in the hardware, but maybe they got removed with the heavy handed cleanup.

               Hungry Horse

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2014, 01:08:15 AM »
Eric,
Were you the one looking for parts for a miniature flintlock a while back?
I have a plate with semi "rainproof"pan,a frizzen,gooseneck cock with top jaw.
This little lock is about 3 1/2"x 3/4.I have no tools or drill fixture for this little
lock and no interest in making it. $30 gets all of it.

Bob Roller

Offline JTR

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2014, 02:18:57 AM »
Eric,
Were you the one looking for parts for a miniature flintlock a while back?
I have a plate with semi "rainproof"pan,a frizzen,gooseneck cock with top jaw.
This little lock is about 3 1/2"x 3/4.I have no tools or drill fixture for this little
lock and no interest in making it. $30 gets all of it.

Bob Roller

Bob,
If Eric doesn't want it, I'll take it!
John
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Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2014, 03:15:01 AM »
Eric,
Were you the one looking for parts for a miniature flintlock a while back?
I have a plate with semi "rainproof"pan,a frizzen,gooseneck cock with top jaw.
This little lock is about 3 1/2"x 3/4.I have no tools or drill fixture for this little
lock and no interest in making it. $30 gets all of it.

Bob Roller

Bob - Absolutely I'm looking for a little lock, that one sounds perfect for my needs!  I've sent you a PM, Many thanks,
-Eric
Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

mike blair

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Re: Sea Service Pistol?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2014, 09:22:57 AM »
what about an American made copy of sea service/officer/dragoon?just a thought.i like it.the i like pistols and i like unanswerable questions.its pretty cool in it's way.