Swivel breech question

[Shreckmeister]

What is the standard method of attaching the two barrels in a swivel breech rifle?

[louieparker]

Depends on what type swivel you are talking about,,The Boyers with wood forestocks were held in place with pins like lots of other rifles,,But one pin held both barrels at each pinning point.. To do this one barrel had a split lug that had just enough room between the two ears for the single lug on the second barrel to fit between. Then a single pin went through the three pieces to hold the barrels in place.  LP

[Bill Paton]

There are many variations seen in American swivel breeches, as well as two areas covered by your question. I don't know which one you are asking, so will give short answers to each possibility. My list of carefully examined and documented 18th and 19th Century Kentucky double rifles for my ongoing study is past 60 now, and many different solutions are seen in originals. I think you are asking
         (1) how the barrels are fastened to each other.
The wording could also refer to
         (2) how the barrels are fastened to the swivel plate that rotates with the barrels. 

Answer #1)
  A) Louie describes an elegant method seen on good rifles which are full stocked. Those guns are not "full paneled", but have a single piece fore stock with two barrel inlets in it (by far the most common method used in full stocked swivels).
  B) Some have only two "side by side" lugs (slightly offset to each side) with one pin.
  C) Others have the opposing barrel lugs staggered lengthwise and each with its own pin. Most barrels use 3 or 4 pins in the length of the barrel (6 or 8 in using one pin for one lug).
  D) A few later ones use keys with similar arrangements.

In these full wood stocked doubles, the rod thimbles are usually screwed on from the other side through an escutcheon, but occasionally are made with a tab and pinned from top to bottom in the barrel channels, much as a single barreled rifle is pinned across under the barrel channel.

  E) In rifles with metal fore ends or ribs or even bare, most are soft soldered along the touching flats.
  F) At least one has opposed dovetails with "bow tie" wedges ( it was loose).

As to fastening to the swivel plate, square lugs integral with the breech plugs are often set in square holes in the swivel plate and screwed or pinned parallel with the face of the plate. Some are done with dove tailed breech plug "tangs" screwed vertically or pinned transversely, or with hook breech plugs as seen in patent breeches. Jaegers are frequently fastened with screws from behind into the square breech plug (parallel to and concentric with the bore) and of course countersunk as the head is on the swivel bearing face. Some originals have a combination of hook and square pinned plug, or dovetail and square plug. Lots of variation is seen, and many are loose at the barrel/ swivel plate interface.

I will be interested in hearing more about your build!

Bill Paton 907-230-3600  wapaton.sr@gmail.com

[Shreckmeister]

I ask because I purchased a crude child rifle that has a nicolas hawk barrel on it with his typical brass inlaid signature that wraps over 3 Flats of the barrel. I finally pulled the barrel last nignt to examine it because I think it came off a swivel breech originally.  I think this because the barrel is only 30 inches long yet the signature is perfectly centered between the original rear sight and the breech and the front sight is also a hawk original based on others I have seen. The barrel is smooth bore about 50 cal. What I found underneath were 3 staples. I didn't pay enough attention but I think they were centered. Don't know if my findings rule out prior use on a swivel or not.  Anxious for your swivel book. Flint swivels are my favorite rifles. Ps my friend makes swivels frim scratch including the locks and swivel mech. I can get pictures of them if you like. He makes a nice small mechanism with percussion locks. Thanks for the info. Any additional help appreciated

[Dphariss]

I don't think there is a standard way. The one I need to finish has taper pins but this is likely not traditional. The other has screws through the front plate holding the breech plugs in the plate. This requires completely disassembly of the action to remove the barrels.

Dan

[JTR]

Shreck, My Hawk swivel attaches the barrels together using bow tie (double dovetail) flat keys. These slide into matching dovetails filed into each barrel. The keys are tapered just a smidge, so the tighter you pound them in, the tighter the barrels are held together. If you look at pictures of Hawk swivels, and see the ends of three steel keys along the brass forearm, these are the keys that hold the barrels together. The keys have nothing to do with holding the forearm to the barrels.
I've seen one other Hawk swivel disassembled, and it was as I've described here. By the way, Hawks swivel barrels were generally 39-40 inches long.

If your barrel has only staples, it wouldn't have been on a swivel, at least not by the attachment method I'm familiar with. If your barrel is 30 inches long, I'd guess its either a cut back from the muzzle rifle barrel, with the front sight reused, or one Hawk made specifically for a child's size gun. 

Sounds like your front sight has the little engraved squiggle Hawk put on either side of the blade?

John