project idea - plastic gun casts

[Jim Kibler]

I'd like to gauge a project idea.  I've had some inquiries regarding casts of guns.  I made some out of impression foam and plaster.  Many of you probably saw these on Dave Crisalli's recent posts.  It would be possible to make a plastic replica of a gun, to be used as a guide in learning to build a longrifle.  The idea would be to make the replica extend from the butt plate to just in front of the entry pipe.  These could be very detailed.  Similar to the casts I made from butt stock carving.  I would probably use my guns as models.

So, I wonder what interest there would be in this?  It would not necessarily be an easy or cheap product to produce.  I for one would be interested in something like this from the better builders today.  In my mind the value would be immense and I'd be willing to pay what would be required.  So...  I'm just trying to get an idea of whether I'd like to pursue this project.  It has to be financially reasonable.  Perhaps I can propose a product, price and see how many would commit to a purchase?  Let me know what you think.

Jim

[Rolf]

Great idea!! I'd be interested , depending on the price and which rifles are offerd.

Best regards
Rolf

[James Rogers]

Good originals would be nice as well!!

[davec2]

Jim,

I'm in !!!

[Mark Elliott]

Depending on the cost, I might be willing to pay for casts of some of the best originals.   Casts of other contemporary makers products doesn't interest me so much, not that you don't make much better guns than me.  I would love to have a cast of RCA #42.

[KLMoors]

I think it would be pretty useful. It would help with the subtle details and transitions that are so hard to get just using pictures.

[Jim Kibler]

It's unlikely many owners of the prized original rifles we admire would want plastic resin applied to their guns to make a mold.  Molds from less valuable guns such as English fowling pieces might be an option.  It's more likely that this would be viable for contemporary work.  I don't know for sure what the cost would be, but a GUESS might be in the range of $300.  Maybe more maybe less.  

Perhaps i see things different than most, but if I could buy such a cast from the contemporary makers I admire, I would lay down the money in a second!  The value of such a thing would be immeasurable.  But then again, many don't look at these things like I do.  Many have different objectives with this stuff and that's okay.

So, like all things, I'm not going to spend time with such a project unless there is demand and at least a little money can be made on my part.  I'm getting the feeling it might not be viable, but perhaps I'm drawing conclusions too fast.

Jim

[T*O*F]

Jim,
I seem to remember sometime last year that there was an ad in Muzzleblasts from a company advertising a compound specifically for making castings of longrifles and/or other guns.  Maybe someone else recalls the company or when the ad was placed.

[FALout]

I know I would be interested,depending on the cost, since I do not have access to originals for close up viewing or handling.  The few times I've had the chance to get to Friendship, I've learned that some of my builds were too heavy in certain areas.  The bonus would be to see some of the carving if that is possible with this plastic casting.

[valongrifles]

That would be Muzzle Blasts May 2013 page 18.  www.smooth-on.com/longrifle

[Jim Kibler]

FALout,

The casting would be almost a perfect replica of the gun, including carving.  Here's a link that shows  just a carved region that was cast.
 


 We're selling these as guide for learning how to carve a longrifle (http://kiblerslongrifles.com/products/carving-kit).  Even the grain shows in the cast! 

[bgf]

I saw the casts JK had at CLA and they are unbelievably close to real; I could see grain in the wood.  I think I would have been able to see a lot of tool marks as well, except of course the carving was a JK original, and he doesn't leave tool marks .

It is a great idea for contemporaries and any originals where practical.  On the originals, maybe some form of 3d scanning would be possible with minimal risk to the rifles.  I've had an idea in the back of my mind for some while to either "rotoscope" rifles or come up with a more standard set of photos that should be taken.  It frustrates me that many times photos of rifles are selected only for aesthetics, while more useful though more prosaic shots are cut out.  E.g., tang style is pretty telling, but shots of the tang are often omitted.

[FALout]

Jim, the detail is great.

[John Archer]

Great idea! I think these would be fantastic learning tools. I'm certainly in.

John.

[Dave B]

Jim This is a great Idea. The cost is worth it if you are serious about your building.  I have never gone to the lengths that the smoothon folks have. I have only used the plaster for my models. the plastic is the better way to go for durability. Freddy Harrison had a great little Jaeger that you could make a full cast of with out too much trouble.  If you could talk who ever owns that John Bivins quaker stock John used for his carving classes. I would pay 300 for one of those. I would be willing to pay that for a mold of an original but finding one that the owner is going to let you pour gooe all over is going to be a tough sell. Still one may find a willing Donner some where here abouts. We use a 3D scanner at work and I have been disappointed at its ablitiy to capture detail on dark areas. It works great if the subject is white. I tried to dust some items to scann using baby powder but it still gave incomplete results. The molding process is the better way to go in my opinion.

[Hungry Horse]

 Fort Ross, the old Russian fort on the California coast, has its armory stocked with plastic replicas that look for all the world like the real thing. Of course you can't get right up close to them, but just the same they look good. Whoever painted them, and weathered them, did a fine job.


                        Hungry Horse

[Chris Treichel]

There were some guys at the last Baltimore Antique Sword and Gun show that had a display showing how this could be done.  They had made several casts of highly ornate stocks...

[Thawk]

I'm not sure of how expensive this would be.   But it would be darn useful to guys like me who for whatever reason don't have access to originals or if you do you aren't able to make measurements.  But to have a plastic copy right there on the bench with you to reference? that would be awesome!!

[Chris Treichel]

If I remember right the fellows at the show were using latex rubber to make the mold and then used some kind of liquid to fill it which cured or some such.

[Chris Treichel]

Managed to find their site which shows them casting an entire rifle... http://www.smooth-on.com/gallery.php?galleryid=525

[mr. no gold]

I saw a plastic Nicholas Hawk rifle that had been done on a 3-D printer. It left some things to be desired, but since it was being used for a floor lamp. it was just right. Jim, you were at the KRA, you may have seen it there.
Dick

[hubertmoll]

Great idea. That's what a was looking for!  I'm very interested in plastic casts of original longrifles, to have a reference to compare with the own work.

[Chris Treichel]

It would be neat to be able to call over to someone, have them put the piece through a 3D scanner and I print out a section... might be another few years before that is realistic in an economic way.  My Home Depot is selling a simple 3D printer but at over $2K I am not jumping on it especially since the level of detail is not yet cheap enough.

[Captchee]

Jim , I beat the same idea around a few years back .
  Not for  doing contemporary guns but  museum originals .
 As  we all know , there is no way anyone of a right mind is going to allow  any type of  common molding  materials to touch these guns . Even when it comes to the compression type foams there were concerns from those folks I spoke to .
 At that time the 3D printers were just starting to be  marketed to the public .
  I also found that  the 3D  system had actually been around for some time in the automotive industry  . While the public versions were  not very accurate , the  commercial versions were.
Interesting enough , GM  had a  hand held laser scanner that aloud an item to be scanned in 3D and would reproduce a hair  laying on an item  when imputed into the CNC printer .
 I was told that this was how they reproduced  their  dash components from clay  carvings .  From those  scans moulds were made  for mass production .

 The set up however was very expansive. Scanner was  running in the 30 thousand range and the CNC printer . I call it CNC but it was more then that as it was capable of reproducing ,in wood , plastic or  soft metals like aluminum  . It also didn’t just use milling heads but also  some type of laser burning?  .  But  to purchase one that was capable of doing a 36 X12X8 item was  50 +

In other words , one $#*! of an investment . But the tolerances that it would reproduce , was simply amazing .
  One would have to sell a whole lot of items before it would pay for itself