Author Topic: Thickness of spring flat bar?  (Read 4363 times)

Matabele

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Thickness of spring flat bar?
« on: November 26, 2014, 12:33:17 AM »
Hi all

I'm cobbling some material together to make a back action lock. Here in South Africa I can get my hands on some 1070 flat bar, maximum thickness available though is 3mm which is a little less than 1/8". Would this be thick enough in the "elbow" for a mainspring, after finishing off and polishing etc?

Any advice appreciated, thanks!

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Thickness of spring flat bar?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2014, 01:19:45 AM »
 Yes. Very few springs are more than .100 thick at the thickest part.  1070 is a little low on carbon for the best springs. I have made a lot of them from old push lawnmower blades or hay rack teeth. If you can find an old car with torsion bar springs in the trunk that works well also.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 01:22:24 AM by jerrywh »
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Thickness of spring flat bar?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2014, 01:40:26 AM »
I have used our American 1075 for decades successfully in 1/8 (.125) inch thickness and it works fine for a V shaped spring. I have also made mainsprings from 3/32 (.094) and so far no reported problems.With 1070 you might have to spread the spring a little more to set the preload(tension)but with a bit of practice,it can be done.

Bob Roller

Offline smart dog

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Re: Thickness of spring flat bar?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2014, 01:59:29 AM »
Hi Matabele,
You should be fine, but just understand the correct heat treating for your metal. 

dave
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Matabele

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Re: Thickness of spring flat bar?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2014, 08:16:49 AM »
Thanks for the replies guys, I'll give the 1070 a go and I'm sure I can find some scrap car springs too. I presume the car spring would have to be annealed first? Any idea what metal grade is used in a car spring?

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Thickness of spring flat bar?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2014, 02:20:12 PM »
Thanks for the replies guys, I'll give the 1070 a go and I'm sure I can find some scrap car springs too. I presume the car spring would have to be annealed first? Any idea what metal grade is used in a car spring?

Stay with the 1050,car springs even when annealed present problems and a lot of extra work for small gain.Been there.done that.We had a gunsmith here years ago that made springs from car hood retaining springs which were flat cross section but coiled.He would anneal them,straighten them and used them for whatever job was at hand. I gave him some 1075 ready to use and he never thought about the car springs again.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Thickness of spring flat bar?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2014, 02:39:52 PM »
Thanks for the replies guys, I'll give the 1070 a go and I'm sure I can find some scrap car springs too. I presume the car spring would have to be annealed first? Any idea what metal grade is used in a car spring?

Stay with the 1050,car springs even when annealed present problems and a lot of extra work for small gain.Been there.done that.We had a gunsmith here years ago that made springs from car hood retaining springs which were flat cross section but coiled.He would anneal them,straighten them and used them for whatever job was at hand. I gave him some 1075 ready to use and he never thought about the car springs again.

Bob Roller

Willie Cochran made a decent copy of the Chet Shoults Ketland lock and told me he used .094 1050 for mainsprings because he didn't have to heat it to bend it. It seemed to
work so I would think 1070 would be better and probably would have to be heated to be bent.

Bob Roller

Matabele

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Re: Thickness of spring flat bar?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2014, 10:57:31 PM »
Appreciate the responses, thanks. I'll give the 1070 a go and see how it does. I'm thinking a temper at around 600 degrees to retain as much "snap" as possible. Time will tell.

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Thickness of spring flat bar?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2014, 04:22:28 PM »
Guys,

A little known fact is that the strength of a spring depends only on the physical size, thickness, shape of the piece, not on the material or heat treat.  Springs made in an identical size and shape will act with an identical load/deflection no matter what material or heat treat.  In other words, changing the heat treat temper without changing the mainspring shape or size does not change the felt "strength" of the spring.

I am sure that the non-engineering types will question this.  Here is a good quote from a 1912 engineering manual that says the same thing in better terms.  Note the underlined sentence.  Personally I heat treat temper my 1095 springs at 810F.  If I wish to give the mainspring more "snap" I give the spring more preload, by increasing the distance the mainspring must be compressed to fit onto the tumbler lip.

Jim

The Iron Age Volume 89 May 9, 1912, page 1151

The stiffness of a piece of steel cannot be increased by alloying nor by heat treatment.  By this I mean that provided the elastic limit is not exceeded, the amount of deflection for a given load cannot be decreased.  However, heat treatment will raise the elastic limit so that a much greater load can be carried without causing a permanent set. Until the elastic limit is reached all steels, no matter how treated or of what nature, will deflect the same amount under the same load.  However, the poorer grade steel or the un-heattreated one will reach its elastic limit first and will then deflect much more and retain a permanent set.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Thickness of spring flat bar?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2014, 04:45:50 AM »
Mr. Everett is exactly right.

I might add that in my experience it is very difficult to convince anyone but a metallurgist.

Anyway, if you want more snap, make it thicker.

If you want it to break, maybe even just resting in your lock, then temper it too hard. Me, I would never temper anything around 600F.