leaving off mounts

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I was driving to work this morning and was thinking about what early builders might leave off of a rifle to save the customer money.  I know there has been some debate here about the issue of "barn guns" and the lack of butt plates.  But in my limited experience if I were going to leave parts off in order to save cost and time, I do not think the buttplate would be the first choice.  Like many of you I have seen original rifles with no buttplate, but if I were given the choice to leave something off it would be the entry ramrod pipe and the nosecap.  No other pieces of the puzzle have sent me to cussing more that those.  If a colonial builder had a buttplate casting, it would not have been that much more work to install. 

I really don't have a question, just thinking on stuff.

Coryjoe

[iloco]

The North West Trade guns have no entry pipe or nose cap but do have a buttplate.  Guess others before us have thought about this also. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Another one is the side plate.  An ordinary washer will work without having to inlet a detailed side plate.  The obvious one is a simple cavity cut into the butt stock in place of a patch box.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I worked at a living history museum for years and the long gun I carried had no sideplate or washers.  It saw a lot of use, firing multiple times daily.  I would take the lock off once a week and give it a good clean.  The only issue was eventually the screws were pulling the lock in to point where the very tip of the sear bar was touching the inside of the inlet, but it took years for that to happen.

Coryjoe

[Dennis Glazener]

Most of the so called southern poor boy rifles had no nose cap or buttplate. Most all that I have seen/handled had at least two ram rod pipes but usually had no entry pipe. I usually leave off the entry pipe when building my Gillespie rifles partly because its correct and largely because I hate to make them! I don't mind making buttplates but after owning several with out them it just doesn't seem to make any difference. I am just as reluctant to put a nicely finished buttplate on the ground/gravel as I am a bare wood butt one, its no big deal to me to leave it off.

Have seen one or two rifles that only had one rr pipe and that seemed just pure lazy to me since they are so easy to make and install. Not sure why anyone would not put the second one on.

Cost wise (labor) I leave off the doll's head and over the comb tangs. Way too many man hours when trying to cut cost.

Single lock screws instead of fighting to get the front one in and not block the rr channel. I usually put two in but the old timers usually skipped them especially on percussion rifles.

We are familiar with grease holes in lieu of patchboxes but there were a lot of guns made without cheek rests, I assume to save money.

Dennis

[Kermit]

Mark Wheland made a simple rifle for me a few years ago. When we talked, he had no issue with leaving off the sideplate, nosecap, or entry pipe. He had doubts about no buttplate, and I agreed. I'm glad he built it that way. That skinny rifle will be with me as long as I can draw breath.

[stuart cee dub]

Coryjoe,
I have been thinking along those same lines regarding what is really important on a simplified rifle .There is an interesting rifle on the Contemporary Makers site by Mark Silver (Dec 2014 ) I have been reviewing extensively.
No muzzlecap, no entry pipe ,simple buttplate,relatively plain wood ,does have a side plate and a few incised lines ,which was an inspriation .

The reason I was looking at this was I was thinking of making one Don Getz's barn guns but wasn't quite comfortable eliminating the butt plate as I always seem to forget a chunk of wood or an old piece of carpet to rest the butt on at the bench whenever I go to one of the local matches .A flat buttplate is easier than a curved one to inlet.
Regards Stuart

     

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Stuart,

That is the exact same rifle I am looking at.  Great minds think a like.  I do think the style of the rifle matters.  The thicker earlier rifle would certainly be stronger than a slimmer rifle with no buttplate. 

[stuart cee dub]

Agreed Coryjoe,

The earlier styles also work well with the plainer wood .

Given the choice of either spending the time on inletting a buttplate or putting on a sliding wood patchbox like Don Getz often did on his Barn guns I'll take the buttplate every time.I can't think of any example of an early rifle with a grease hole that I have seen ,but I agree with the trade off from a utilititarian point of view .
 
You must hate entry pipe inletting as much as I ,making them isn't much fun either .
Another thing I liked about the Silvers Rifle was that the triggerguard was screw fastened.To date I have pinned all mine throught the lugs.

After I saw that rifle I rummaged through my orphan parts drawer and came up with most of the hardware I needed for simple early flat butted brass mounted rifle .I am working on a drawing to see if it will all fit together and look probable when compared to some pre-Rev guns in various books .

[flinchrocket]

  Marshall Ralph L. Hooker showed a picture in his autobiography of a rifle that Daniel Boone carried with him to Missouri in 1799. If I remember correctly, it was a York rifle and had a grease hole!

[sqrldog]

Guys I own the Mark Silver rifle being discussed. It isbased on rifle # 194 in William Ivey's North Carolina book. That particular rifle had no buttplate just a rose headed nail driven in where the heel meets the butt. The rifle does have curl but I asked Mark to finish it dark. Look close at the butt. The original was lighter with no curl at all. The original has a forearm molding and incised carving where the wrist meets the comb. Mark asked if I minded a sprig of carving behind the cheek piece since the original had none. Not a hard decision to make. The forged hardware was made for me by Daniel Casey. Tom Snyder charcoal blued the barrel and color cased the lock. The rifle is really quick and accurate. Since I live in the south I think its at home here. I had a great deal of fun with Mark about the grease hole as to whether he used a spade bit or a NC auger. He used a spade bit but went back and added threads in the bottom of the hole so it would appear H C. At the CLA we present him with a worn out greasy auger to use next time. Isn't muzzleloading fun. The rifle will be used to hunt deer and hogs. A true .54 cal. NC hog rifle. Tim

[Bob Roller]

  Marshall Ralph L. Hooker showed a picture in his autobiography of a rifle that Daniel Boone carried with him to Missouri in 1799. If I remember correctly, it was a York rifle and had a grease hole!

 Marshal Ralph Hooker and I were friends beginning in 1965 and he had that Boone rifle then.Over the years he had me make flintlocks for his representations of it.They were mostly Maslin locks using the external parts that were once Russ Hamm's.The first one he made was done with an old lock and a 48 inch barrel he HAND FILED from round to octagon.The original rifle was a basic as it could be and it did have a grease hole.

Bob Roller

[AsMs]

Bob,

Please tell us more about that rifle.  Was it a York rifle did it have brass or steel mounts. What caliber???
Thanks in advance


AsMs

[Daryl]

This .32  rifle has no entry pipe, nor washer or sided plate but does have a cheek rest, butt plate and double set, double throw triggers,as well as an English lock. I am told it is close enough. It is quite plain.
We don't know the maker, but it was purchased from Barbie Chambers while on consignment, at Dixon's all those years ago - 3 now?

[flinchrocket]

Bob, the old Marshall must have been one tough old bird. When he walked the Boone Wilderness Road the second time for the Bicentennial he was 69 yrs old and Ivey Moore who was the oldest living Eagle scout
at the time walked with him and Mr. Moore was 72. I wish I could have met the old Marshall, he was quite
a guy!  

Coryjoe! Early this year I built a Sheetz barn gun for my step- son. No nose cap, entry thimble or buttplate
and a single trigger. The shape of the stock and the Sheetz sideplate was the only clue that it was a Sheetz
Rifle.

[David R. Pennington]

 A friend of mine recently restored an old local rifle that the customer had inherited. The piece had originally most likely been flint but had replacement percussion lock. The piece was very pleasingly styled with nice forestock moulding but was missing but plate and never had one. This rifle had outlived several owners and at least 2 locks, with barrel being shortened. With all this use unprotected butt stock still in amazingly good condition.

[Bob Roller]

Bob,

Please tell us more about that rifle.  Was it a York rifle did it have brass or steel mounts. What caliber???
Thanks in advance


AsMs

The rifle Ralph Hooker had with him at Friendship in 1965 has steel (iron)
trim,looked to be walnut(maybe) and was 36 caliber or thereabout.
I wouldn't know the difference in a York rifle from anything else.
As he got into advanced age he sold off some of his relics and artifacts.
Where the Boone gun is now I don't know.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Bob, the old Marshall must have been one tough old bird. When he walked the Boone Wilderness Road the second time for the Bicentennial he was 69 yrs old and Ivey Moore who was the oldest living Eagle scout
at the time walked with him and Mr. Moore was 72. I wish I could have met the old Marshall, he was quite
a guy!   Jerry

Jerry,
He was a relic straight out of the pages of American history and I remember the first time I saw him at the Spring Shoot at Friendship in 1965.I had a small display of locks and triggers on a folding table at the corner of the Sheepshed and was about half asleep and
this fellow set a cup of black coffee on the table and said "Wake up,I've wanted to meet you for a long time".I looked up into the face of a man who just stepped out of a time long past.During a long conversation I found out he was sleeping in his car and I thought that was a bad idea.I told him I had a room in a fine home in the village tat was owned by a widow named Hulda Linkmeyer,one of the German women who was part of a church group that did the cooking in the club house.I DO MISS those ladies and those marvelous meals.
I went to the kitchen and asked Hulda if a friend from Carthage,Missouri could share my room.It had two beds and she said ,Ja,and I handed her $5. I told Ralph he had a bed in a fine home and he didn't know what to think.Later that night we sat up and talked about a wide variety of things.He asked me if I traveled armed and I said yes and showed him my Smith&Wesson 1950 Target 44 Special which I still own.He allowed as to how that was one of the finest pistols he had ever had in his hand.We discussed reloading and he asked me if I knew where any 10 gauge brass cases could be had for a Greener he owned and I told him "maybe".
The next morning we had a fine breakfast in the club house and it was German cooking at its best.
Over the years I talked with him on the phone and I have several letters from him,written in pencil.
Getting back to the 10 gauge brass,E.M.Farris had two boxes and I bought them and mailed them to Ralph and I got a call from him and he wanted to pay me for them and I told him I had "lost" the bill and not to worry..He grumbled a bit but thanked me for being kind to him.
I think about Marshal Hooker every so often and I have a letter from his daughter,June laying here now telling me how much she appreciated telling her about how I met her father and she I know that you were one of his special friends.That letter is a treasure to me because there will NEVER be another Marshal R.L.Hooker.
Thanks for your note and it brought back memories of a man and a time long gone.

Bob Roller
 

[Ray Nelson]

I have a friend with an original maple stocked with no butt plate rifle and heel measures around 1 1/2"s and fairly square. It has no cracks or chips and impressed me to try building one of my own. Thus I jumped in that direction but decided to have horn at the heel and shaped the butt so toe was up from ground surface when loading. On last builds with no butt plate I have used a two toe plate setup as the shape I created made the toe area a thin taper. I rivet or use fine thread screw to attach the two together and peen the inside plate at very end over the so called normal toe plat where they meet. Ends up durable and protects the vulnerable are well.

I have used my first, a 40 caliber going on 18 years now here in Minnesota using in all conditions of weather, brush, gravel, snow and ice ground surfaces and have been duly impressed how the butt stock has held up.

Its a mental hurdle perhaps to overcome and to understand going in...I'm going to live with what ever may result from this choice that seems illogical.

Ray