Author Topic: Pressing my luck  (Read 7825 times)

Offline Nordnecker

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Pressing my luck
« on: January 04, 2015, 05:04:24 PM »
I've had a few good days in the shop lately. I got my lock morticed in. I got my buttplate fit. My hunk of wood is starting to look like a rifle.
Yesterday, I inlet the triggers- Davis #4 that were bought from Jim Chambers. This is my first experience with double set triggers. I understand these triggers have a little extra "meat" on top.
So, everything is working nicely.  :)
Now, I'm thinking about the trigger guard. In order for it to fit into the bottom of the stock nice and flush, the trigger plate will have to go a little deeper. Or, could I cut the front of the trigger plate off? I'm a little hesitant to inlet the trigger plate deeper, since everything is working so well.
What do you think? What would you do?
"I can no longer stand back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids."- Gen Jack T. Ripper

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2015, 05:10:31 PM »
Most of mine have worked out to where the front end of the trigger plate just extends a little past the edge of the trigger guard at the front of the bow. I usually cut some of the front off the trigger plate if need be then file a little notch in the top of the base of the guard to allow it to mortise in enough.
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Offline Nordnecker

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2015, 05:15:12 PM »
One more thing- The rear end of the trigger plate- should it be fastened with a small wood screw?
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Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2015, 05:27:11 PM »
They were done both ways. Seems like a lot of the earlier ones had a screw, some are pinned through a lug. What style rifle is it? Look at some pictures and see what originals of the same style had.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline B.Habermehl

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2015, 05:40:36 PM »
Usually you need to do a combination of these three. Trim the front end of the trigger plate to make room for the lug of the trigger guard and help to get the guard to fit the triggers. File a step in the trigger plate so the guard will sit to proper depth. Also file the bottom of the trigger guard to help the fit. BJH
BJH

galamb

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2015, 05:42:28 PM »
If you are working towards a specific rifle, do it the way that it was done.

If you are simply building a style/school - not super specific, have a look at what was "common".

If most of the examples of your style were "pinned", then putting in a screw may look wrong.

I prefer pins anytime I can use them regardless of what they are holding (barrel, trigger guard etc).

Offline Nordnecker

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2015, 06:01:52 PM »
Thanks, Guys.
I just ran out to the shop to have a fresh look. It looks like filing a step will work just fine. I'm very relieved that I don't have to take the whole plate in deeper.
What style of rifle is it? I'm glad you asked. It's a Tennessee, stocked in walnut, inspired by the work of J. Atkinson and Elisha Bull. I haven't forged the grip rail, yet. Might take a stab at it today. In the pics that I have, it's not easy to see what's under the grip rail (screw), but I'm pretty sure I don't see a pin through the stock.
"I can no longer stand back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids."- Gen Jack T. Ripper

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2015, 07:10:19 PM »
All that are clearly pictured in the Buffalo Valley book (Byrd) are double screwed.  Guess that's how i'll start doing it. I like pins better.  I think i've heard that some were pinned in the front and screwed on the other end. 

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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2015, 07:21:10 PM »
I believe he's asking about how to attach the trigger plate.... Yes, a small wood screw will secure it in the rear. I'm not aware of any trigger plate being pinned.
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Offline Pete G.

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2015, 07:54:19 PM »
A lot of the southern guns used the trigger guard to hold the triggers in place in the mortise. When you remove the two screws holding the guard the triggers drop out of the bottom for cleaning, adjusting, etc.

Another way to hold the trigger plate is to file about a 45 degree angle on the rear and inlet it into a reverse cut mortise.

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2015, 05:07:22 AM »
Another option would be to fasten the triggerguard to the front of the trigger plate with a machine screw.
The trigger plate would have to extend far enough forward to allow room for the screw to fit just in front of the bow. Put a wood screw in the rear of the trigger plate and triggerguard then the tang bolt would hold
everything in the front together.

Offline Nordnecker

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2015, 03:54:59 PM »
I got the tang bolt in yesterday. I will need a wood screw in the rear of the plate because the grip rail doesn't touch it at all. So now if I tighten the tang bolt down too tight, the lock won't catch in the full cock notch. If I back off the bolt a turn and 1/2, the lock will catch in the full cock notch. So I guess one of the trigger bars is too high?
"I can no longer stand back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids."- Gen Jack T. Ripper

Offline bama

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2015, 05:33:26 PM »
When you tighten down the tang screw and the lock does not catch in the full cock notch, this means the sear arm of the lock is hitting the top of the trigger bar.  The trigger bar is to high or tall, rather than loosening the tang bolt take a little off of the top of the trigger bar. Just take enough off of the trigger bar until the lock catches, if done carefully you will get a very close relationship of trigger to sear which in turn reduces trigger travel to fire the lock. I lke to set mine up so that when my trigger moves even the slightest amount the lock fires. ;D
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2015, 06:05:38 PM »
There is normally no screw holding the front of the trigger plate on a Southern rifle including the makers you mentioned.   The trigger guard held the trigger plate in at the front and a wood screw held the trigger plate at the rear, behind the rear trigger spring.  I cut off the front of the trigger plates and notch my trigger guards to allow the trigger plate to remain flush with the bottom line of the stock and also allow the front extension of the guard to be inlet flush with the wood of the forearm.    Trigger plates should always be flush with the bottom line of the stock.   If an original wasn't that way,  most likely, the maker was just being sloppy.  Also,  the trigger guards on iron mounted SW VA and E TN rifles were almost always attached with a single wood screw in each of the front and rear extensions of the trigger guard.  I have rarely seen one pinned, and if it was, it was the front extension.   This is because the front screw will hit the barrel and must be particularly short with the threads going all the way to the guard.  I have to make these screws.    Pinning would be a better solution but it was rarely done.   I would save that for a particularly fancy iron mounted rifle.   I have considered installing a tab and pinning the front extension on my personal chunk gun.   Given that it is filed up like a brass guard, it would probably look better.

Southern rifles (at least from SW VA south, and certainly E. TNs) almost universally had wood screws hold the tang of the breech plug.  There was no tang screw going through to the trigger plate.  

If you inlet the front of the trigger plate too deep, you can put an adjustment into your trigger bar position by putting a flat head wood screw into the mortice over the front of the trigger plate.   You will need to screw the wood screw almost all the way into the wood so that the flat head of the screw is just a hair above the wood in the mortice.  This will hold the trigger bar a hair off the sear and serve to resist the trigger moving in relation to the sear as the wood compresses under the trigger plate and the stock shrinks.   You can, of course, adjust the screw.  

I also put a screw through the trigger plate under the terminal end of the rear trigger spring.   This serves as a stop to take pressure off the sear if you can't give as much clearance as you would like between rear trigger bar and the sear.   This screw usually falls in the little space between the bow spur and the grip rail of the trigger guard.   You will see such a screw on some original rifles.

I also frequently bend the sear up on very thin Southern rifles.   On the thin Southern rifles that use the relatively large Chambers Late Ketland,  there is no way to properly fit set triggers without bending up the sear a considerable amount.   You just can't take enough off the trigger bars to compensate.    Sometimes,  I have to bend up sear, grind down the trigger bars, and install a stop on the rear trigger spring.  

By the way,  the sear must be bent hot and several tries will probably be necessary to get the sear bar positioned exactly where it needs to be.   Once everything fits,  you will need to re-heat treat the sear.  

« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 06:24:50 PM by Mark Elliott »

Offline Nordnecker

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2015, 11:53:11 PM »
^ Wow! A ton of info there. I ground a little more off of the rear trigger bar and everything seams OK for now. I say for now because I'm futzing around with the trigger guard/ grip rail. Tweek, Tweek, Tweek, still not satisfied. Tired of tweeking….Filed too much off here, need to file more off there, rebend that end, restraighten this end, Tweek, Tweek…Eventually I'll get fed up with it and it'll just end up however. I think I'll take the dog for a run. She'll run, I'll be riding in the golf cart.

"I can no longer stand back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids."- Gen Jack T. Ripper

Offline B.Habermehl

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2015, 12:04:02 AM »
I got the tang bolt in yesterday. I will need a wood screw in the rear of the plate because the grip rail doesn't touch it at all. So now if I tighten the tang bolt down too tight, the lock won't catch in the full cock notch. If I back off the bolt a turn and 1/2, the lock will catch in the full cock notch. So I guess one of the trigger bars is too high?
My guess is the bottom of your trigger mortise is not flat and your compressing high spots when you tighten the tang bolt. Get your rear screw in the trigger plate, snug things up and see. Do this before grinding on your triggers levers. If the trigger plate is rocking on a high spot it will drive you nuts trying to get the triggers working. Correct the rocking first. BJH
BJH

Ric27

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2015, 06:57:05 PM »
This site is a incredible source of information on the subtleties of gunmaking that really make the difference. Constantly amazed with the knowledge ad willingness to share in depth

Ric
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Pressing my luck
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2015, 07:44:54 PM »
I've had a few good days in the shop lately. I got my lock morticed in. I got my buttplate fit. My hunk of wood is starting to look like a rifle.
Yesterday, I inlet the triggers- Davis #4 that were bought from Jim Chambers. This is my first experience with double set triggers. I understand these triggers have a little extra "meat" on top.
So, everything is working nicely.  :)
Now, I'm thinking about the trigger guard. In order for it to fit into the bottom of the stock nice and flush, the trigger plate will have to go a little deeper. Or, could I cut the front of the trigger plate off? I'm a little hesitant to inlet the trigger plate deeper, since everything is working so well.
What do you think? What would you do?

Is the bottom line of the stock where you want it? Is the bottom line of the forend blending right with the toe line.  Inletting the trigger deeper can slim the rifle if there is sufficient wood over the rod hole. Do the triggers work correctly? Do they fire the lock well? THIS is the important thing and must be addressed before proceeding. If not then the rear triggers protrusion into the sear mortice must be checked and wood removed to allow the trigger to rise high enough to strike the sear or the trigger plate may need to be set deeper. This is determined by "eyeball".
I generally notch the trigger guard to give clearance for the trigger plate or shorten the trigger plate and or guard as the rifle demands. When two parts need to be modified to fit its usually best to modify the least expensive part. Also the trigger plate should have been shortened before it was inlet if this was needed.

Dan
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