Author Topic: CVA drum and nipple  (Read 22810 times)

Offline Duane Harshaw

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CVA drum and nipple
« on: February 14, 2015, 08:05:15 PM »
I have an older CVA Hawken,the threads for the nipple are stripped,should I just replace the drum,or drill and tap the old one and if I drill and tap what size size should I go to..thx
Coaldale Alberta Canada

FrontierMuzzleloading

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2015, 08:22:20 PM »
I'd just drill and tap to the next size.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2015, 08:37:23 PM »
TOW sells (or at least used to) oversized taps and nipples.  Check out their web site.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2015, 08:40:46 PM »
Some of the older CVA barrels had an odd drum that threaded all the way through the breech.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

ken

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2015, 12:05:12 AM »
I have heard that one can not remove the drum on a CVA, so I would go for the nipple, Try a 1/4 28 first.

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2015, 01:19:22 AM »
A CVA nipple is 6-1mm; a 1/4 x 28 nipple isn't going to do the job.  A 7-1mm nipple is made to repair these guns after retapping to that size.  It's listed in Track of the Wolf's catalog.  Here's what they say about it:

Nipple, 7-1mm metric thread to repair CVA, Traditions, Jukar and other Spanish made guns, nipple seat must be re-tapped to 7mm to accept this nipple, Use No. 11 CCI cap, or No. 1075 RWS cap, stainless steel
Cone length: 0.440"
Thread journal length: 0.195"
Overall length: 0.635"
Diameter of base: 0.307"
Part Number:   CVA-OS-S
Availability:   In Stock
Price:   $7.99

Mole Eyes



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Offline JCKelly

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2015, 07:06:33 PM »
Did metallography on a CVA barrel back in the '80's. Nice, clean low carbon steel (no sulfides), similar to our AISI 1015.

Translation - good, ductile steel.

I did hear that their drum & breechplug design was innovative. 

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2015, 07:55:16 PM »
You can remove the drum (with difficulty), but that serves no purpose.  You cannot remove the breech plug, without first removing the drum.  the drum goes through the barrel wall, the breech plug, and into the barrel wall on the far side.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline longcruise

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2015, 11:06:44 PM »
I removed and replaced a drum on a cva with no difficulty.  It did not cross through the plug into the barrel on the opposite side.  It terminated at the deep point of a tapered channel in the breech plug.  I can see how some may have ended up as you describe either by accident or intentionally.
Mike Lee

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2015, 12:06:19 AM »
Apparently CVA used several breech designs over the years.  I have one made exactly as Taylor described.

-Ron
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Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2015, 01:23:46 AM »
Anyone know the cleanout screw size on the CVA percussion drum?  Checked TOW and they have no CVA parts. 

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2015, 01:53:50 AM »
I would drill and tap it with a machine screw that you like.  And never take it back out.  It doesn't need to come out.  It is not for cleaning the drum.  It is to make drilling the drum easier for a modern manufacturer.  A better drum would not have one.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2015, 04:32:37 AM »
Thanks Taylor. It is not my gun - belongs to a friend that is very old.   I noticed when he was shooting it the screw was really loose.  I want to fix it up before he hurts someone. I am not sure the screw that is in it now isn't a hardware store stove bolt and the slotted head is all buggered up.  I will get the gun and properly tap for a good machine screw.  Told him before not to unscrew that thing and not to shoot it until I can fix it.   

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2015, 04:49:23 AM »
Jerry,

As I understand it, Deer Creek Products bought all of CVA's inventory of parts when they got out of sidelock guns.  They list that part for at least some models.  http://www.deercreekproducts.net/store/c1/Featured_Products.html.  Also, most Traditions models are almost identical to the corresponding CVA version.  I'm repairing a Traditions rifle for a youth group and Traditions has been very helpful in obtaining parts.

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
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NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline Captchee

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2015, 03:59:58 PM »
I have found 3 diffrent drum bolsters on CVA guns . early on they were very much the same as the standard drums  ToW sells .
from there the neck of the drum grew longer   ending with very long necked drums that reach  near completly through the breech

Offline T*O*F

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2015, 04:11:11 PM »
Quote
I have found 3 diffrent drum bolsters on CVA guns
That's why it's a crapshoot when people decide they are going to convert their gun to flint.  Only the early barrels with a standard drum will work and you don't know which one you've got until it's removed.  Otherwise, you've just got a huge fouling trap from the threaded hole on the offside of the breech.
Dave Kanger

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-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Captchee

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2015, 04:05:17 AM »
Quote
I have found 3 diffrent drum bolsters on CVA guns
That's why it's a crapshoot when people decide they are going to convert their gun to flint.  Only the early barrels with a standard drum will work and you don't know which one you've got until it's removed.  Otherwise, you've just got a huge fouling trap from the threaded hole on the offside of the breech.
really
no more then patent breech really

Offline T*O*F

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2015, 05:21:32 AM »
Quote
I have found 3 diffrent drum bolsters on CVA guns
That's why it's a crapshoot when people decide they are going to convert their gun to flint.  Only the early barrels with a standard drum will work and you don't know which one you've got until it's removed.  Otherwise, you've just got a huge fouling trap from the threaded hole on the offside of the breech.
really
no more then patent breech really

Yes, really.  Read Taylor's post.
Quote
the drum goes through the barrel wall, the breech plug, and into the barrel wall on the far side.
Not only do some of them go into the barrel wall on the opposite side, but often they ran the tap into the hole as well.  If you remove the drum and install a 10mm touch hole liner, that threaded hole on the offside will do nothing but erode over time and collect hard fouling.
I can only assume you've never encountered one of them.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Captchee

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2015, 04:29:14 PM »
 i know what Taylor said .  what does tht have to do with anything . would you like to see all 3 diffrent bolsters that CVA used ?
 i  have encountered so far all 3 of them .
 . what you have is a threaded section thats long .  at the end of that section the face is threaded so as to seal against the off side .  its also a larger diameter neck then the short neck
 this was done because CVA was experiencing issues with bolsters loosening up . people trying to use pliers to tighten them. The necks would crack and the bolster would come out when fired .
 To convert you don’t expose the threaded  section in side . You have to use that threaded section  of the original bolster OR make a new one  of better quality then what can be found in some CVA flintlock , both late and newer
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 04:30:53 PM by Captchee »

Offline T*O*F

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2015, 06:49:00 PM »
Quote
i know what Taylor said .  what does tht have to do with anything . would you like to see all 3 diffrent bolsters that CVA used ?  i  have encountered so far all 3 of them .

Charles,
You're trying to turn this into something personal.  It has nothing to do with your capabilities, but rather with those of the greater population of individuals who are usually the ones who attempt this.  In my original post, I said "When people attempt," not when you do.  It's a generic term and refers to others.  Some guy picks up an old Jukar or CVA and decides he's going to convert it to flint.  He's never done anything like it before and has neither the knowledge, tools, or capability to do the conversion.  He just thinks it's something he wants to do.

It's not always about US, but rather about giving advice to THEM at their level of capability.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2015, 09:20:25 PM »
There is good information here, especially about the different breech styles and safety concerns.

Please read your posts a couple of time before posting. That usually helps me when I start getting riled up so I don't post something I didn't intend.
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Offline Captchee

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Re: CVA drum and nipple
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2015, 04:32:02 AM »
TOF , nothing personal  in any way . Im sorry if you think I did .
 the reason i ask if you would like to see the different bolsters is that i  have taken the time to photograph all  3 together  do to being ask about them so many times . its easier to show then exsplain .

 Respectfully you also said  
Quote
That's why it's a crapshoot when people decide they are going to convert their gun to flint Only the early barrels with a standard drum will work and you don't know which one you've got until it's removed. Otherwise, you've just got a huge fouling trap from the threaded hole on the offside of the breech.

 As I pointed out , all the   drums will work  for a conversion. The longer one have to be done differently  or you will end up  with that fouling trap .
 While what Taylor said is true  in that you have to remove the bolster before removing the plug , one should also keep in mind that the CVA plugs and bolsters  are were not hand fit . They are fit to the barrels using a friction machine . IE  the plug is not wrenched , its  turned by machine  which applies pressure while at the same time turning the plug by friction .This added to  the slight taper of the plug  can cause issues  that folks don’t plan on , when they try and remove them . One being the plugs can be difficult to  put back in   and index  . The bolsters can  actually turn past where they originally set.
Also because the bolster is drilled and threaded after inserting the plug , one can end up destroying the threads  of the plug and barrel when they try and remove the breech plug .

 Purchasing a new CVA bolster or one from Traditions or deer creek often works . But sometimes it  results in the  nipple not aligning properly . This is an index problem .  If the bolster does need replaced , it  may need fitting  or a blank Cva bolster  , matching the one from the rifle  should be used . IE one of the 3 different ones I mentioned in my first post . Then drilled and tapped for the nipple

 But I would only do that if the bolster was suspect. IE showed signs of coming lose , was lose and definitely signs  of gas escaping around the back of the bolster . If none of those signs are apparent, what I would recommend is that  the bolster be re-tapped for a larger nipple . They can be had in metric and standard . Myself I prefer standard  mainly because I find them easier  obtain locally.
As to the clean out screw . Tapping the hole to standard , will allow a simple stove bolt  to be used . Just make sure to use an good quality  one  with anti -seize . Not one of the cheep one that are nickel plated  

So please don’t feel I was offended as that’s not the case .  

PS .
 Yep the clean out  screw is there  so as to drill the flash channel .
However  with the CVA clean  screw , it also is used for a clean out .
 Here is why .
With the longer necked CVA bolster , the flash from the cap , has to make 2, 90 deg turns .
1) from the nipple
2) from the bolster channel  into the main charge .
 I add the 2nd because  CVA did not always drill a hole to the main charge .
In some cases its just a slit  in others it’s a mall hole less then 1/8th . In yet others it’s the same size as the flash channel .
  All of these may not even align true to  the bore  .
I have even seen them where they were not drilled at all .IE  not hole to the main charge .
 This combined with improper cleaning  will in short order , produce a very troublesome ignition as the flash channel becomes fouled with hard carbonized fouling .
 By removing the clean out screw , one can  clear the channel . Which could not be done  even by means of removing the bolster

 Like Taylor mentioned. It would not be needed if a better bolster was used  and frankly wasn’t / isn’t needed on the short necked bolster and the long necked bolsters would have been needed if Jukar  would have just done a better job of aligning the hammer to the nipple  or lock placement
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 05:03:24 AM by Captchee »