Set triggers, et al

[red owl]

I always jump quick and assume a lot. I have always just assumed that many of the set triggers (fire either way) that come with kits or are sole individually- I've just assumed these triggers are copies of original styles.  Am I correct on this? Are the set triggers in original long rifles similar to what is available to buy today from the various suppliers?  One other issue, is there any break down on the percentages of original American long rifles which came with a single trigger? Double set trigger? Single set trigger?  On single triggers, were they always pinned into a slot cut in the stock and the trigger plate flat or were such triggers pinned to trigger plates with upright tabs? Are the upright tabs a new development seen only on replicas?

[PPatch]

A great question Red Owl and I'll be interested in the discussion that follows. I can't answer your questions but for one area. Set triggers are almost as old as the crossbow and there are/were many many variations on the theme. I have a little book "Drawings of  - Rifle Gun - Triggers, Locks, Fittings & Etc. Observations & Notes" by james Webb. In it are his sketches and observations of quite a few set trigger designs. I believe the making of them was only limited by the makers imagination. Some designs proved successful over others so became "standard" and widely copied, while others dropped by the wayside over time.

dave

[kaintuck]

red owl.....do some on-line searches......you'll see that a lot had double/set triggers~ the style was by the gun/school/maker~ then there are LOTS of single trigger old guns....again, by school/area/year~~~~

in answer~ yes

marc n tomtom

[Dennis Glazener]

I always jump quick and assume a lot. I have always just assumed that many of the set triggers (fire either way) that come with kits or are sole individually- I've just assumed these triggers are copies of original styles.  Am I correct on this? Are the set triggers in original long rifles similar to what is available to buy today from the various suppliers?  One other issue, is there any break down on the percentages of original American long rifles which came with a single trigger? Double set trigger? Single set trigger?  On single triggers, were they always pinned into a slot cut in the stock and the trigger plate flat or were such triggers pinned to trigger plates with upright tabs? Are the upright tabs a new development seen only on replicas?

Lets see, if its a double lever set trigger it is designed to fire set or un-set BUT that depends on the installation. I have had some that I just could not get to fire un-set others did so with no problem. It depends on how close you guessed the proper position of the trigger plate.

I don't think I have ever seen an original set trigger made exactly like the modern made set triggers, I am sure some match up but I have not seen them. Most of the originals that I have seen are single lever, they must be set to fire.

Don't know the percentages of longrifles with set triggers, doubt anyone could say since they vary as to locale, date made etc. I do know that up until about a week ago I had never seen a NC Mountain rifle that did not have double set triggers but just last week I saw a Sitton rifle that had a single set trigger!

I suspect someone way back may have used the upright tabs on a single trigger but I have never seen them on an original but I haven't seen a whole lot of them taken apart. Someone else will have to answer the other questions about the single triggers.
Dennis

[David R. Pennington]

Ian Pratt had a very interesting set of original triggers with him at our meeting at Boonesborough. They were single lever (had to be set to fire) double triggers from an original Honaker rifle. The mainspring was in front of the triggers with a rectangular hole cut out in the spring to fit over the front trigger and a light return spring for the front trigger under the mainspring that engaged a notch in the front of the forward trigger. Very simple but ingenious design. The ears for the rear trigger pin were forged up out of the plate which made the plate sort of hourglass shape. There were no holes for attachment screws, evidently they were held in the stock by the guard.

[Bob Roller]

The two lever triggers are found on antique rifles and on some European pistols.I have made them since 1959 and also the single bar type plus the Hawken types which in many instances appear to be nothing but common two lever triggers transferred to the big trigger bar.I have made a few with a separate trigger latch that had the adjustment screw in the front trigger like those seen on high quality double set triggers.The only advantage is that no matter how finely they are adjusted the angle of the front trigger never changes.Cosmetic advantage?
The American style of single lever triggers must be set before cocking the lock or the tumbler must not have a half cock position as many caplocks of old were made or altered to.
I think about 99% of new made locks have a "fly"which allows a light strike on the sear and no real risk of catching in the half cock.

Bob Roller

[red owl]

Thanks everyone for the replies.  One thing that got me thinking on this subject was a diary from a later period in the 1830's and written by a trapper in the Rocky Mountains.  There were two men and they leaned their rifles up against nearby trees and were loafing around the campfire when attacked by Indians.  In their panic they accidentally grabbed each others rifle. One had a set trigger and the other a simple trigger. The man with the set trigger didn't know how to fire the rifle. 
   These rifles were likely trade rifles, just a plainly finished long rifle.  In any event the thought occurred to me that if the rifle with the set trigger had the double lever set up that the firearm still could have been fired- that got me wondering if the set trigger was a single set- the only way to fire was to set the trigger. THEN I started wondering if a lot of photos of old rifles with one trigger were a simple trigger or a single set trigger and suddenly I realized I knew very little about this topic.

[Turtle]

When I first started building longrifles for myself and others, I put doubles in them all, they just had to have one. Then after hunting, shooting, learning how to make a light, crisp single, my next longrifle will have a single trigger. I tried to talk my last customer out of a double, but he "just had to have one". And so it goes.
                                                          Turtle

[Dennis Glazener]

Then after hunting, shooting, learning how to make a light, crisp single, my next longrifle will have a single trigger.

I agree with the use of a single trigger but some guns i.e. 99.9% of the mountain rifles, east TN etc you have to use a double set trigger unless you want it to stand out like a sore thumb.
Dennis

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I believe that almost all American longrifles have their simple triggers pinned through the stock, rather than in a boss attached to the trigger plate.  There are going to be exceptions certainly.  I too believe that the triggers pinned through a boss, preferably high above the plate, is a European innovation occurring more and more toward the end of the flintlock era, and even then, on the finest guns.
That should excite some discussion.

[red owl]

Well the last rifle I built from scratch had a pinned through the stock trigger. I made (pinned) it a little higher than normal and created a pretty light trigger pull- not like a set trigger but better than a lot of modern arms.  I like set triggers but since it is a mechanical devise it is subject to malfunction no matter how rare. The simplicity of a pinned trigger speaks for itself.

[Pete G.]

I have always thought that set triggers seemed to be more popular during some periods more than others. This could lead to some old rifles being backfit with new trigger mechanisms. Studying photographs can turn up some old style rifles with double set triggers and modified trigger guards. A properly installed single trigger and a well tuned lock can usually perform as well as any set trigger.

[Bob Roller]

I have always thought that set triggers seemed to be more popular during some periods more than others. This could lead to some old rifles being backfit with new trigger mechanisms. Studying photographs can turn up some old style rifles with double set triggers and modified trigger guards. A properly installed single trigger and a well tuned lock can usually perform as well as any set trigger.

Pete G.
The best shooting I ever did was with a Whitworth semi-military match rifle in .451.
It had a single trigger,top of the line Brazier lock with 4 screw bridle and the sear
mounted on an axle with the full cock notch a little deeper than a scratch across
the tumbler.I have made a bunch of set triggers but don't care for them and don't
need or want them.

Bob Roller

[Kermit]

How about single set triggers? I've long been curious, but don't recall ever actually handling--much less shooting--a rifle so equipped. HC/PC? Worthwhile?

I have a couple of flinters with simple pinned triggers that are good ones. The best was one done for me by Mark Wheland. Thanks for talking me out of the double-set, Mark.

[Turtle]

  The two guns I shot with single sets both transmitted a release impulse to my trigger finger, like a sharp vibration. This bothered my shooting. Do they all do that?
                                         Thanks,Rich

[Bob Roller]

  The two guns I shot with single sets both transmitted a release impulse to my trigger finger, like a sharp vibration. This bothered my shooting. Do they all do that?
                                         Thanks,Rich

I have not heard of the sensation you describe.I used to make a single set trigger of German design that would not allow the trigger to kick back when you touched it but did have a seperate release  striker to release the lock.It is not like the French or English designs and the Germans called it a "Suhlerstecher" or Kammerstecher.
Suhl was at one time a gun making center in Germany and the "Kammerstecher"used asliding CAM action to set the trigger.

Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I am not sure I understand the sensation you describe, Turtle, but the triggers sold through MBS have a feature similar to what you describe.  You press the trigger forward to set it, and when you touch it off, the trigger actually moves rearward away from your trigger finger, and that is a little disconcerting, at first.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Double action single set trigger by Stan Hollenbaugh

  I have two rifles with this trigger and love both. push or pull trigger forward to set. No creep and no flopping after release.   

[RAT]

One things that seems different between original and modern set triggers is the use of round wire springs. Old guns would have used flat springs.

[Turtle]

 Yes ,the trigger snapped away from my finger but then bounced back. One was a Pedroseli pistol, the other a rifle I don't recall what. I probably could have gotten used to it, but it upset my follow through.
                                                            Turtle