Author Topic: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?  (Read 14441 times)

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2015, 03:22:17 PM »
Just take the gun moose hunting for a week or so.  That should do it.

Turtle

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2015, 04:43:55 PM »
  Sorry!

Offline JDK

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2015, 04:50:37 PM »
  Sorry!

If your apologizing for your earlier post, DON'T.  There's no harm asking questions here.

If you've been getting good results doing it that way then that's what works for YOU, and that's fine.

Just don't be afraid to try new things to see if your results improve.

Enjoy, J.D.
J.D. Kerstetter

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2015, 05:26:12 PM »
  Sorry!

If your apologizing for your earlier post, DON'T.  There's no harm asking questions here.

If you've been getting good results doing it that way then that's what works for YOU, and that's fine.

Just don't be afraid to try new things to see if your results improve.

Enjoy, J.D.

Sound advice. We ALL learn by trying and doing.What works is just that and failure avoided on the next time around.

Bob Roller

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2015, 08:01:10 PM »
All this is way to much work.

Never use anything on a rag. You'll get super dull and nothing. It looks awfull.

You can use 4-0 steel wool between coats, but not to finish. Carefull. l

Use either fine pumice and oil or rottenstone and oil on a toothbrush. Scrub it and wipe it off with a soft  teeshirt. The pumice is more aggressive and thus duller. I use rottenstone most of the time. Using water instead of the oil is even more aggressive. Just never use a rag to apply it. Tooth brush or any stiff brush.

Finally finish with one last coat that is wiped off or a little wax.
OH - MY Bill say it an't so -- you will now get the "Rath of Dan" on you!!!
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline jerrywh

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2015, 09:36:49 PM »
 Bill.  This is a sincere question. What problems does using a rag cause?
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Offline Longone

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2015, 05:23:31 PM »
Question for the fellows using B.C. sheen conditioner. How did you apply it? Felt pad, cloth, by hand?

Longone

Offline Dphariss

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2015, 07:54:49 PM »
All this is way to much work.

Never use anything on a rag. You'll get super dull and nothing. It looks awfull.

You can use 4-0 steel wool between coats, but not to finish. Carefull. l

Use either fine pumice and oil or rottenstone and oil on a toothbrush. Scrub it and wipe it off with a soft  teeshirt. The pumice is more aggressive and thus duller. I use rottenstone most of the time. Using water instead of the oil is even more aggressive. Just never use a rag to apply it. Tooth brush or any stiff brush.

Finally finish with one last coat that is wiped off or a little wax.
OH - MY Bill say it an't so -- you will now get the "Rath of Dan" on you!!!

Rath was a meat packing plant in Waterloo, Iowa  ;D

People learn what works for THEM in wood finishing in many cases.
I have learned that some batches of linseed oil seem to require reheating if they get old to restore their drying properties. I don't know why but it SEEMS to be the case. Could be what was added and how it was processed. The actual level or type of dryer used buy the company that made the base oil. The problem is that it takes sometimes a lot of time to figure some of these things out. Most store bought finishes are made for "shine" few are really suitable for firearms in the long term.  Other than spirit varnish traditional oil based finishes will develop more shine with use.
I am fairly certain that a scraped finish that many here like can be smoothed with a coat of a heavy bodied varnish that would cover the scraper marks in one coat something that a modern varnish that is only 20 to 40% solids just cannot do. this excess of solvents allows the varnish to be more user friendly for someone refinishing a chair or table. They flatten almost instantly and leave a nice shine unless a "low gloss" version. The ability to flatten to a smooth surface makes it easier for them to shine.
A heavy bodied oil with a relatively slow drying time will often not flatten completely. It make retain some brush marks or even the ridges of the skin of the person that applied it if its spread with the hand. These can often be seen on oil varnish on rifles that still have all their finish. But these are generally late 19th c BL rifles like Ballards and it will require magnification to show them. Also these will tend to wear down and make for a glossier finish over time.
These thick bodied varnishes will not penetrate well. This speeds the finishing time and may only require on coat. High solvent content finishes will not do this they lack enough solids to cover the wood in one coat and since they are so thin they penetrate bare wood and will produce "dry spots" for the first couple of coats. Thin finishes with a lot of stoddard solvent or what ever will dry fast but they require far too many coats to get a finish. If its a scraped finish it may take even longer. The more times that a stock is touched to apply finish the more opportunity for "problems". I used to do a lot of wet sanding on Walnut. Its something that a Drill Instructor could use for punishment in Boot Camp. But lots of people seem to like all that work. I don't . Curly hard maple can be finished in one or two coats. A HUNTING rifle can be coated with a turpentine thinned oil, allowed to soak in for a few minutes, wiped dry, assembled and hunted with immediately. This will give a dull finish but it will be pretty durable and protective and in a week of so will start to show some increased shine where the users hands rub on it on use. Better penetration can be achieved by heating the wood before application and after with radiant heat. I would think that this would be perfect for a SMR and would not be too surprised to find many had a similar one coat finish applied. It is cheap and very effective for a "service" rifle type finish.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline jerrywh

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2015, 08:28:02 PM »
 I'm still waiting for an explanation for Bill Shipman's statement.  A statement without an explanation doesn't mean much. We need to know why in order to learn anything.
  There are flattening agents for paint and there should be a flattening agent for an oil finish.
 There are websites that advertise such but they only sell in large quantities. Whether or not they will work on gun finishes I don't know.  They do work on auto paints.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 08:31:05 PM by jerrywh »
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Offline JDK

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2015, 09:10:31 PM »
There are flattening agents for paint and there should be a flattening agent for an oil finish.
 There are websites that advertise such but they only sell in large quantities.

My understanding is that flattening agents in clear finishes are to be avoided (whether you buy the finish with it already in there or add it yourself) as the additives are opaque and cloud the finish.  It becomes more obvious when the products are applied heavily as you can often see the milkiness.  You can also see it settled out in the bottom of the can of some finishes before you stir.

I guess it doesn't matter on hardwood floors or modern furniture so much, but on guns and other projects that "feature" the wood the clouding is more obvious.

Enjoy, J.D.
J.D. Kerstetter

Offline jerrywh

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2015, 12:00:30 AM »
 A matte finish obstructs the view of the grain regardless of how it's done. 
It's like a frosted window. The trick is not too make it to matted.
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Offline B Shipman

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2015, 08:40:29 AM »
Jerry, sorry for the delay. I'm a bit overwhelmed with stuff at the moment.

The cloth has never workd for me. I just get super dull and shiny sports. It looks terrible. A stiff brush. A scrubbing. Especially around carving, does it. A cloth just wipes it off. There timing with Permalyn is important. You work it after 2 days and it's rather soft. Much like Linspeed oil. That's the time. After a week  you bounce off. It's a cross between a spar varnish and a poly urethane.
It takes less than a day to "dry". But more than a week to "harden". I've done many experiments with this stuff and I think this is the best varnish ever invented. It's just expensive. But nothing approaches it.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: "Dulling" a Permayln finish?
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2015, 09:46:35 AM »
 Thanks Bill.
  I never had much luck with rottenstone and a cloth with oil on it. I use permalyn a lot and will try the stiff brush next. It sounds good around carving especially.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.