drum and nipple

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

One of our members asked a valid question about the use of a drum and nipple in a particular build.  The rifle is to have a 7/8" AF octagonal barrel in .50 calibre, and a drum and nipple ignition system.  It is my opinion that that barrel is insufficient in barrel wall thickness to support a drum so I recommended a patent breech with a reduced powder chamber area to make the wall thickness appropriate.  The following are pictures of the breech plug I made for him with some discussion about the philosophy behind it.

Here's a picture of the finished plug and the end of the bar of steel from which I made it.



I started with a 1 1/4" diameter piece of shafting from a lumber mill scrap pile, and turned it down to a little better than 1" in diameter, turned and threaded the plugs threaded journal 5/8" x 18 tpi x 5./8" long.  Then I drilled the plug to create a powder chamber ending 1/2" back of the face of the plug itself.  this section of the plug shall end up 1" in length, and be filed to an octagonal shape to match the 7/8" barrel.  I cut the flats by clamping the bar in the cross feed tool post holder and used an mill in the head stock to shave off the steel.  I started big and made several cuts to get down to close to finished size, and then filed it the rest of the way.  The tang and lug are cut using a saw and files.  I have drilled a pilot hole to position the drum at exactly the end of the chamber and the wall there is a little over .300".  This work is a considerable work out and i enjoy it immensely...keeps an old guy in shape.



This is an end view of the plug with light coming in through the pilot hole for the drum.

[Curtis]

Very Nice Taylor!  Glad you posted it.


Curtis

[Bob Roller]

  This is the cure for thin wall barrels including those made from quality materials.I have made the same types
in years gone by and several were requested by people who ordered Bill Large's barrels. I did them in his shop using a small South Bend lathe and a Bridgeport milling machine. I have one in a one inch 50 caliber GM now but it will be a flintlock on the English pattern with WV influences.

Bob Roller

[JBJ]

Taylor,
Excellent! How do you intend to handle the drum's entry into the plug? I can visualize installing the drum and then recontouring the plug's chamber so that things are smooth and devoid of places to accumulate powder residue. Howver, I suspect you have a simpler/clever solution. Thanks.
J.B.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Very nicely made Taylor -- but I ask the question -- why did you not suggest TOTW's Ohio style breach plug to the builder? If it was the style of the tang, can't the original style be cut off and another style be welded on?

[frogwalking]

When Chuck and I were teens, we were constantly involved in one project or another, nearly always involving muzzle loading firearms.  Chuck came up with a piece of civil war rifle barrel that he wanted to build a percussion rifle out of, but the round barrel (.51 cal.) was too thin for a drum to be installed.  Our mentor, Miller, made a bolster to fit the contour of the barrel on one side, flat on the other and roughly cylindrical otherwise.  He silver soldered this onto the barrel and drilled and tapped both the barrel and the "bolster" to install the drum.  Chuck has killed several deer with this small rifle, and still owns it 50+ years later.  This manner of solving the thin barrel problem may work for someone who does not have the considerable resources to do it in the manner D. Taylor is proposing.  (Although I do think D. Taylor's method is clearly superior.)

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I'm going to install the drum today, and I'll post pictures when it's done.  I believe I recommended Pete Allan's patent breech sold through TOW but was asked to create one.  Perhaps it is made for only a 13/16" bbl??

The drum I'm installing has a journal .300" long and will bottom in the hole created for it, as it contacts the side of the plug, just like a well fit breech plug and barrel is fitted.  The channel in the drum is generous, and although it is a 90 degree turn, I don't see it being a fowling trap.  My recommendation though, is to clean the barrel having removed the nipple, by pumping water in and out under pressure.  That will flush the patent breech and its drum so nothing remains.  Perhaps I'll make a flushing nipple for it so he doesn't have to take the barrel off - I know many folks are adverse to this practice.  Flushing it with water is the only way to ensure the fowling is removed.

Got to get some breakfast in...then to the shop.

[JDK]

Another thing to consider is that there are many who just don't trust "cast" breeches unless they have undergone some sort of nondestructive testing/inspection to ensure that there are no voids in the casting.

Track states in the description of some their Hawken breeches that they are x-rayed, but makes no such claim on their Ohio style breeches, so without asking them one would have to assume they are not.

All that and the fact that this one likely cost Taylor not much more than time at the lathe and mill.

Taylor having machined this one has created a superior product IMHO.  Nicely done Sir.  Enjoy, J.D.

[gunmaker]

www.thegunworks.com has those in stock, milled not cast,but only in 13/16"  The only way to put a drum on a lite bbl.   Tom

[Acer Saccharum]

Very neat workmanship, Taylor.

[Daryl]

Nicely done, Taylor, now get back to work Tammy's rifle. LoL

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Many thanks for the kind remarks, lads.

I installed the drum into the breech plug.  As I said earlier, I cut the end of the drum to 82 degrees to bottom in the hole in the plug, as the drum bottomed against the side of the plug.  I ended up cutting away a little more of the drum's journal by a few 'thou so that I could accomplish this.  But there is lots of engagement of the drum in the wall of the breech plug to support the drum, as you may be able to tell from this photo.



...and this one.  I used a 5/16" ball end mill to cut the bottom of the chamber in the plug, leaving a polished surface.


Drum installed...

[gunmaker]

It doesn't get better'n that....Quality workmanship....Tom

[P.W.Berkuta]

I made this left hand breach plug for a half stock Ohio target rifle for a woman in Oregon out of 1018 cold roll steel – no screw in drum to worry about. More than one way to “skin a cat”. Nipple was located and installed after lock inlet and stocked shaped.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

PWB:  That is a nice piece of machining!

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I looked into the Pete Allen products on TOW.  I am sure they are great, but they are out of stock and just would not work for this.  The best option was get Taylor in on it.  Fantastic work.  I am loosing a lot less sleep over this project now.

Coryjoe

[gunmaker]

How do you turn the plug round for the threads, in lathe ?  I guess it could be hand filed using Drill index for a sizer....?  Tom

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The first job was to turn the shaft down to clean it up and bring it to the correct OD.  Then I turned the journal for the breech thread to .6125" and cut the threads with a die in a dies stock and supported by the tail stock to ensure it was square.  I then drilled the powder chamber 5/16" dia. and 1.625" deep - to end up in the centre of the octagonal section and intersect the connecting hole for the drum. I finished the hole with a ball end mill to make a nice polished end to this chamber.

I cut a 5/8 inch thread in the end of a 7/8" octagonal barrel stub and seated the new plug in it.  Then with the band saw, I cut away the excess to expose the4 tang and the lug area.  Then I clamped the barrel stub in the compound tool holder on the cross feed, and with a mill bit in the headstock, cut the octagon flats, leaving enough to finish with a file.

Once all this was accomplished, I finished up the plug with files, and then made the drum from a piece of 5/8" bar stock.  Again, I used the lathe to make the journal and a die to cut the threads.  The drum is threaded 3/8' x 24 tpi.  A drill press was used to bore the hole for the drum in the side of the breech plug.

Thanks for asking these questions...all very valid.

[flatsguide]

Nice work. A question though. As you said the drum comes up tight against the 82 degree cone to fit the taper in the end of the threaded portion while at the same time the shoulder of the drum comes up tight on the barrel extension. Why would you not just drill through to the powder chamber, tap the hole with a plug tap but don't go all the way with the plug tap, just enough to have a slight interference fit with the threaded portion of the drum. Then make the threaded portion of the drum long enough to go into the powder chamber, then run the ball endmill in and clean up the drum and radius the bottom of the bbl extension at the same time. I know it would be an interrupted cut but it should not be a problem with a HSS cutter. A witness mark on the bottom of the drum and barrel extension would line things up again.
Please don't think I'm criticizing your work,  Just curious
Thanks Richard

[Bob Roller]

I made this left hand breach plug for a half stock Ohio target rifle for a woman in Oregon out of 1018 cold roll steel – no screw in drum to worry about. More than one way to “skin a cat”. Nipple was located and installed after lock inlet and stocked shaped.

 Did you use a hollow mill or a very careful interrupted cut using a lathe?
 It's a good job no matter how you did it.

 Bob Roller

[P.W.Berkuta]

Bob, work was on the lathe using a 4 jaw chuck to turn the journals round - threads were cut like Taylors then to the mill (I have the same mill as Taylor) to cut the flats - then file tang - sand and done.

[JBJ]

PWB and Taylor - very nice work!
J.B.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I wanted the drum's journal to bottom against solid steel, rather than be threaded clear through to the chamber.  That way, there is less of a chance of 'gas cutting' on the threads of the drum, which eventually will jeopardize the integrity/safety of the patent breech.  Also, I can remove the drum any time I want, knowing that when I return it, like a breech plug itself in a barrel, it should fit up tightly, and not overturn.

I installed the drum by wrapping it with a doubled layer of 80 grit abrasive cloth folded against itself, with the abrasive on the outside.  I used a pair of vise grips, clamped up the drum once it was started in the threads, and ran it in until it bottomed firmly on both the end of the hole and the side of the flat.  I recommended that the rifle maker, once he has fit the breech to his barrel, polished it to final finish, installed his drum, and then drilled his nipple seat, witness mark the side of the drum and barrel on the forward edge of the side flat.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Nice job Taylor - you do very good work .