Author Topic: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution  (Read 13428 times)

Offline moleeyes36

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Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« on: March 13, 2015, 10:31:49 PM »
I'm undecided about whether or to not to leave a current project as a dark brown finish or make it a rust blue finish.  Having never done the rust blue treatment, I have a question. 

After the final coat of LM brown is applied, do I just card the metal, neutralize it then boil it?  Or do I card it, boil it then neutralize it with the ammonia or baking soda?  Actually I guess that's two questions instead of one. 

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
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NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2015, 12:34:32 AM »
When I've done it, I rust, boil then card. I did this after each application of browning solution. I used Wakhon Bay. Never neutralized and never had a problem. I've had the gun for almost 20 years.

Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2015, 01:33:06 AM »
The LMF instructions say to rust, boil, and card.  Then repeat if necessary 2 or 3 times.  They recommend distilled water.

Offline kutter

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2015, 06:24:46 AM »
I use a lot of L/M for rust bluing and have for years.
It does have a tendency to produce after rust more than other solns I've used.

Last cycle: boil,,then card. You should have your final blue surface at this point.

Then do what ever you want to kill the surface so it doesn't keep rusting. Sodium Bicarb,,ammonia soln are usually submitted as the way to stop any rusting.

L/M is ferric chloride,,that's the primary chemical that is the rusting agent. It's not an acid,,but it is slightly acidic on the Ph scale I think. I'm no chemist and don't pretend to be.
So an alkali soln should do it.
To be truthful, I never had much luck using ammonia or soda dips. Still get some lingering after rust. Wipe downs of the parts leave residue on clean cloth.

A good wash down and scrub with soap and warm water will do a pretty good job of it. A plain bristle brush (wash brush) does nicely and also is a nice final carding as the bristles under the water do a fine carding of their own. Improves the blue a bit IMO.

What I do now and in place of all the above is after the final coat/cycle of L/M rust blue and while the bbl and/or parts are still warm after the last carding is to coat them with one pass of 'quick rustblue'soln.
Then back into the water for 10min. Out and card them and that's it.
 
With the one coat/cycle of quick rust blue (called Hot or Express rustblue also over the top),I've never had any after-rust at all and I like the improved blue color it gives.
For this I use Mark Lee Express Blue.  Never tried it with any other Express/Hot rust blue soln.
Something in the MrkLee Express soln that takes care of any after rusting tendency of the L/M formula in that one cycle.

Don't hesitate to experiment a little. Technique determines a lot in metal finishing and much of that can't be put into words sometimes. Results matter.

Just some ideas and thoughts for you.

Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2015, 07:11:42 AM »
kutter,

After the quick rust blue step at the end, do you let it work for a while, or do you put it in the water immediately?

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2015, 02:19:06 PM »
I use a lot of L/M for rust bluing and have for years.
It does have a tendency to produce after rust more than other solns I've used.

Last cycle: boil,,then card. You should have your final blue surface at this point.

Then do what ever you want to kill the surface so it doesn't keep rusting. Sodium Bicarb,,ammonia soln are usually submitted as the way to stop any rusting.

L/M is ferric chloride,,that's the primary chemical that is the rusting agent. It's not an acid,,but it is slightly acidic on the Ph scale I think. I'm no chemist and don't pretend to be.
So an alkali soln should do it.
To be truthful, I never had much luck using ammonia or soda dips. Still get some lingering after rust. Wipe downs of the parts leave residue on clean cloth.

A good wash down and scrub with soap and warm water will do a pretty good job of it. A plain bristle brush (wash brush) does nicely and also is a nice final carding as the bristles under the water do a fine carding of their own. Improves the blue a bit IMO.

What I do now and in place of all the above is after the final coat/cycle of L/M rust blue and while the bbl and/or parts are still warm after the last carding is to coat them with one pass of 'quick rustblue'soln.
Then back into the water for 10min. Out and card them and that's it.
 
With the one coat/cycle of quick rust blue (called Hot or Express rustblue also over the top),I've never had any after-rust at all and I like the improved blue color it gives.
For this I use Mark Lee Express Blue.  Never tried it with any other Express/Hot rust blue soln.
Something in the MrkLee Express soln that takes care of any after rusting tendency of the L/M formula in that one cycle.

Don't hesitate to experiment a little. Technique determines a lot in metal finishing and much of that can't be put into words sometimes. Results matter.

Just some ideas and thoughts for you.


Kutter,

For clarification, when you say "Last cycle: boil, then card" are you saying that you don't boil after each application and carding of LM?  You only boil once, after the last application and carding of LM?

Thanks,

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2015, 04:37:18 PM »
Also, the LMF instructions do not state how long to leave the barrel in the scalding bath.  Any suggestions? 

Offline sydney

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2015, 05:09:22 PM »
Hi--I boil for 10 to 15 minutes at a good rolling boil
      The tap water at my house seems to work just fine
         Sydney

Offline kutter

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2015, 05:34:13 PM »
Some clarifications & answers to questions,,

When I rust blue w/LM, I boil and card after each rusting cycle.
I know some folks that apply the soln,,let it rust. Then card the rust down and at that point with a browned finish simply apply another coat of soln as if they are seeking a browned finish instead of a blued finish.
They only boil the part every other or every 3rd cycle for example before that cycles carding. Some only boil once,,after the last rusting and then the final carding..
I've always rust blued by boiling and then carding each rusting cycle.

Try different approaches. The intermediate, once in a while boiling
certainly saves time.
It may work for you,,it may not. You won't know till you try as there are so many variables in your set-up (water, humidity, temp, soln, techniques, type of steel, ect) that someone else might get great results and you may get miserable results doing what seems like the same thing.

Maybe it'll give you a certain look you are after for the project or style of M/L you're making. It may not be a pristine Holland & Holland look but rather a more muted look and it may unfold right before your eyes with a technique you find that works.

As for the Quick Rust Blue coating. I apply that one last coating just as Quick Rust is normally done.
With the metal warm, a thin coating in applied in long even strokes to the metal with a dampened patch.
Try not to overlap nor scrub the parts with the stuff. Just an even once over covering.
The soln should dry immediately and form a dark gray or reddish colored coating immediately.
Then w/o waiting, take the parts and place them back into the boiling water for 10min or so.
Take them out and that thin coating is now a black oxide coating than can be carded.
Now you are done.

The entire part can be done with the hot rust method of course,,it can be a little more prone to streaking and odd colors if you're not use to working with it. I use it a lot on small parts yet but not so much for bbls anymore.

Hope this helps.

Offline davec2

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2015, 11:21:02 PM »
I recently browned a barrel (with Laurel Mountain)...went through the whole process...and then decided that I didn't like it brown and wanted it blue / black.  I pulled the barrel, plugged the touch hole and the bore, and then put it in a piece of 2 inch PVC pipe with a cap glued on one end.  I boiled a gallon of distilled water and just dumped it into the tube and let the barrel sit for about 20 minutes.  When I pulled it out, it was black and had a thin, spongy black scale all over.  I thought I would have to start over, but I just carded it with a fine brass bristled hand brush (looks like a brass tooth brush...they sell them in weld shops).  This is how it came out.  I was very pleased with it.






« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 09:12:09 AM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
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Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2015, 02:55:25 PM »
I recently browned a barrel (with Laurel Mountain)...went through the whole process...and then decided that I didn't like it brown and wanted it blue / black.  I pulled the barrel, plugged the touch hole and the bore, and then put it in a piece of 2 inch PVC pipe with a cap glued on one end.  I boiled a gallon of distilled water and just dumped it into the tube and let the barrel sit for about 20 minutes.  When I pulled it out, it was black and had a thin, spongy black scale all over.  I thought I would have to start over, but I just carded it with a fine brass bristled hand brush (looks like a brass tooth brush...they sell them in weld shops).  This is how it came out.  I was very pleased with it.









Dave,

You have every reason to be pleased with the results.  I'll give it a try later this week and post the results.  After all, it's not that big of a deal to strip it off and start again if it doesn't work out for me.  Thanks.

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
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NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline wmrike

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2015, 06:25:39 PM »
My experience with LM is that it is fast acting and one has to be fairly attentive to the progression of the rust so as to avoid pitting.  That aside, it gets the job done.

Offline PPatch

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2015, 07:06:25 PM »
I'm undecided about whether or to not to leave a current project as a dark brown finish or make it a rust blue finish.  Having never done the rust blue treatment, I have a question. 

After the final coat of LM brown is applied, do I just card the metal, neutralize it then boil it?  Or do I card it, boil it then neutralize it with the ammonia or baking soda?  Actually I guess that's two questions instead of one. 

Mole Eyes

I've boiled three barrels and attendant steel furniture so far Mole Eyes. Quite happy with the results. I use well water from the tap.

I apply the last LMF solution and let it work for an hour or two, then give it a final carding with a rolled up canvas and place it in the boiling water. You have to get rid of all red rust, note too that I live in the southeast US and with the humidity and heat the LMF works pretty fast. I then immediately boil the barrel for at least 10 minutes then remove it and dry it and allow the water to flash off the hot barrel. I then hang it from a rafter and  use a propane torch to heat the barrel (and parts too, in turn) til it is pretty hot but not WAY hot and rub motor oil on it and let it cool. This produces a deep black oxide, not a heck of a lot of "blue" to it. Once the rust bluing process is finished I remove all plugs and swab the bore liberally with oil.

dave

Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2015, 09:06:45 PM »
I'm undecided about whether or to not to leave a current project as a dark brown finish or make it a rust blue finish.  Having never done the rust blue treatment, I have a question. 

After the final coat of LM brown is applied, do I just card the metal, neutralize it then boil it?  Or do I card it, boil it then neutralize it with the ammonia or baking soda?  Actually I guess that's two questions instead of one. 

Mole Eyes

I've boiled three barrels and attendant steel furniture so far Mole Eyes. Quite happy with the results. I use well water from the tap.

I apply the last LMF solution and let it work for an hour or two, then give it a final carding with a rolled up canvas and place it in the boiling water. You have to get rid of all red rust, note too that I live in the southeast US and with the humidity and heat the LMF works pretty fast. I then immediately boil the barrel for at least 10 minutes then remove it and dry it and allow the water to flash off the hot barrel. I then hang it from a rafter and  use a propane torch to heat the barrel (and parts too, in turn) til it is pretty hot but not WAY hot and rub motor oil on it and let it cool. This produces a deep black oxide, not a heck of a lot of "blue" to it. Once the rust bluing process is finished I remove all plugs and swab the bore liberally with oil.

dave




Thanks, that's two of you now that have said you don't boil the barrel until after the final application and carding of the LM browning.  That's the way I'll go because I need to get this project finished this week for a local gun show starting Saturday.  I would just stay with a brown finish if I had to boil the barrel after each application of the LM browning solution.  It would look fine that way.

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2015, 10:08:58 PM »
Hi Dave,

Is it the light in the photo, or does the barrel still have a brown/bronze cast under the blue?  Intriguing.

Very crisp work overall.....as usual.   

Best wishes,   Marc

Offline davec2

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2015, 10:36:35 PM »
Marc,

I'm not sure...I will have to go look and report back...
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline moleeyes36

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Re: Rust Bluing with Laurel Mountain Browning Solution
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2015, 01:54:35 AM »
I tried rust bluing using the Laurel Mountain Browning Solution following the general guidelines provided by PPatch and davec2.  I applied the solution and let it work twice then carded and washed the metal with soap and water.  Then I applied 4 more coats carding with a brass brush and 0000 steel wool after each application.  I then put the plugged barrel in a 2” piece of PVC pipe, filled it with boiling water and let it stand for 25 or 30 minutes.  The butt plate and other steel parts were boiled in distilled water for 20 minutes.  I dried the barrel and parts, rubbed them down with a course cloth, heated them with my propane torch to the too hot to touch point then rubbed them down with liberally applied motor oil.  I’m quite pleased with the results, especially for my first attempt at rust bluing.  Thanks for the guidance.

Mole Eyes



Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer