Author Topic: Breach Plug  (Read 15305 times)

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2015, 02:58:23 PM »
Dan, I assume black powder does not produce chlorates, but some BP substitues don't? I recall using Pyrodex in a xxx gun, and I could not get the bore to stop rusting. When I switched back to BP, problem went away.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

JCurtiss

  • Guest
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2015, 03:13:35 PM »
Coarse threads are stronger than fine threads, because there is more metal engaged. 

Actually, that's typically not the case.  A fine threaded connection is typically stronger than a coarse threaded one. A fine thread has a greater cross-sectional area at the thread root as compared to a coarse thread, which is cur deeper.

So if you subjected a  UNC (unified national coarse) bolt and a UNF (unified national fine) bolt to a tensile test, the UNC bolt would fail at a force lower than the the UNF bolt, because the UNC has less area to support the load. Imagine 7/16" diameter thread root compared to a 1/2" diameter root, obviously the 1/2" is stronger in tension. 

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2015, 03:50:01 PM »
Dan, I assume black powder does not produce chlorates, but some BP substitues don't? I recall using Pyrodex in a xxx gun, and I could not get the bore to stop rusting. When I switched back to BP, problem went away.

T7 is apparently non-corrosive or at least has no chlorates. The various sugar powders do not either. I have seen heavy deposits of BP fouling in breeches that did not rust. One was cleaned with water and the other I don't know about but suspect it was not water by the level of fouling in the breech and vent. But in both cases the fouling was oiled and cut off from oxygen in that way.  
I have no experience with the sugar powders. Basically there is BP, P-dex and T7 the rest are various remakes of sugar based powders of the 19th c.
Again this is Bill Knights territory.
This will explain to some extent the various "sugar" powders.
http://www.laflinandrand.com/madmonk/clear_shot.pdf

http://www.laflinandrand.com/page3.htm
Dan
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 03:50:26 PM by Dphariss »
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Long John

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
  • Give me Liberty or give me Death
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2015, 04:33:41 PM »
gibster,

Acer's observations are correct - I should have qualified my statement that for UNC threads 5 full threads results in a threaded area that is equal to the cross-sectional area of the minor diameter of the male threaded element.  At that area ratio the threads in sheer are as strong as the male element in tension.  That's why commercially available nuts aren't any longer than they are - they only have to be as strong as the rod represented by the male screw at minor diameter.

Most commercially available breech plugs will come with 5/8-18 threads of 3/4-16 threads which are UNF.  I'll do the calcs on how many threads for UNF you need for equivalent strength.  It is less than the minor diameter of the male thread but I'm not going to work off memory - I have to do the calc.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2015, 05:03:12 PM »
So, being new to flintlocks I just learned that the breach plug when tightened into the barrel must contact two (2) shoulders at the same time. One shoulder is in the base of the barrel where the breach plug threads stop and the rifling starts.  The other shoulder is simply the end of the barrel.

The purpose, it seems, is to achieve two (2) metal-to-metal seals - one at each of the shoulders mentioned above, which seems difficult to achieve.

However, I've read that if the touch/vent/flash hole intersects the breach plug it's no big deal, merely grind a groove in the plug to allow the touch hole to communicate with the powder charge in the barrel.  But in doing so, you lose one of the metal-to-metal seals. So presumably one (1) rather than two (2) metal-to-metal seals in acceptable?  

Also, a face seal is not a very efficient seal for this application and trying to achieve two (2) of them simultaneously is beyond good engineering practice.  Has anyone ever explored a single tapered metal-to-metal seal?

Perhaps a  tapered seal is just too nontraditional for this application?

Am I asking too many questions?

Jason

 

First traditional gun making is not "engineering practice" its gun making. Engineers and machinists are not gunsmiths and many times do not understand the reasons for why things are done as they are. I am sure some engineer or machinist, for example, decided that it was more efficient to install TC "Hawken" breeches to high torque that stretched the rebated section so that if removal was attempted the rebate would break off.  But it was "efficient" from the standpoint of modern manufacturing.
"Not very efficient?" Yeah its a lot of work especially the first time or two. But one must remember that by MODERN standards a FL is horribly inefficient. Both is operation and in construction which is far more labor intensive than a modern designed to be made with minimal labor.
The face seal is actually very efficient when done right and perfectly seals the threads from any gas/fouling intrusion or in some cases gas leakage that can actually cut the threads.
A tapered, i.e. pipe thread will seal gases and liquids, however,  it LEAVES FOULING TRAPS since the threads are invariably deeper than the plug this is VERY dangerous give the corrosive properties of some propellants used in ML arms.
Given the leakage inherent in modern thread tolerances and the possibility of chlorate fouling from a propellant its a huge mistake to allow gas intrusion into the threads or any fouling trap at the breech even if building a FL since people use it in FLs with a BP booster charge.
Our modern materials and tolerances designed for mass production and interchangable parts sometimes produce problems that were not seen back in the day. AND there were problems back in the day. People killed or injured by breech failures for example. The idea of royalty being killed was likely the reason Europeans set up proof laws.
There are things that worked well in the past with more ductile materials, i.e. iron as opposed to cold rolled steel, allowed things like unsupported drums in drum and nipple guns. With the materials used for these today an unsupported drum will sooner or later break off and depart at significant velocity. This is not supposition. So when we speak of doing things as they were done in the past, tapered breech threads for example, we have to under stand that compared to a propellant with high levels of Potassium Chlorate. There are various horror stories out there. Things that Mad Monk told me would happen decades ago have occurred. I.E. pits eating their way out to cause gas escape. People talk of originals with no shoulders, this is true. But BP is relatively benign and so long as the barrel is not threaded deeper than the plug. This error is not uncommon in modern ML barrels sold to builders with breeches installed. This enhances leakage into the threads and creates a fouling trap/patch grabber at the breech if tapped deep enough.
Cutting grooves in breech faces also produces leaks and traps. Its bad practice.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

JCurtiss

  • Guest
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2015, 07:38:52 PM »

First traditional gun making is not "engineering practice" its gun making.

Yes, I'm quickly understanding this to be the case. 

A tapered, i.e. pipe thread will seal gases and liquids, however,  it LEAVES FOULING TRAPS since the threads are invariably deeper than the plug this is VERY dangerous give the corrosive properties of some propellants used in ML arms.
[/quote]

I would never consider a tapered pipe thread (NPT) for a breach plug.  Instead I was suggesting a straight thread with a tapered seal surface on the nose, similar to this:


dlubbesmeyer

  • Guest
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2015, 09:00:48 PM »
This is a timely subject in my build. I have decided on no touchhole liner so my mark is just 1/16 forward at the breech face. I have not drilled yet. What IS the best practice for a lock inlet a bit too far rearward of the ideal touchhole?
My understanding is to drill just outside the breech face, regardless of if the hole is centered on the pan. Would this be the correct way to go? I have the sunset position correct, my hole is still in the pan, but the pan is 3/32 off center rearward. Any thoughts?

JCurtiss

  • Guest
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2015, 10:52:12 PM »
This is a timely subject in my build. I have decided on no touchhole liner so my mark is just 1/16 forward at the breech face. I have not drilled yet. What IS the best practice for a lock inlet a bit too far rearward of the ideal touchhole?
My understanding is to drill just outside the breech face, regardless of if the hole is centered on the pan. Would this be the correct way to go? I have the sunset position correct, my hole is still in the pan, but the pan is 3/32 off center rearward. Any thoughts?

Firstly, I’m no FL builder.

But, for the touch hole location in the barrel, I would center it vertically on the barrel flat and 0.060” horizontally away from the face of the breach plug.

If the touch hole is too far forward relative to the pan when the barrel is installed, I would simply set the barrel back until it is dead center with the pan. 

Steve-In

  • Guest
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2015, 12:21:07 AM »

First traditional gun making is not "engineering practice" its gun making.

Yes, I'm quickly understanding this to be the case. 

A tapered, i.e. pipe thread will seal gases and liquids, however,  it LEAVES FOULING TRAPS since the threads are invariably deeper than the plug this is VERY dangerous give the corrosive properties of some propellants used in ML arms.


I would never consider a tapered pipe thread (NPT) for a breach plug.  Instead I was suggesting a straight thread with a tapered seal surface on the nose, similar to this:


[/quote]
As a machinist that would design would be a major PITA to fit.  If you are using the flat bottom of the barrel threading any part of the taper projecting into the bore would be a fouling trap.  That design is to fit into a tapered seat with the Hex portion shoulder standing away from the surface.  Square shoulder to square shoulder is the most practical way to mate plug to barrel.  Both are measurable where a taper is very difficult to measure.
But from some of the original breechplugs to barrel fit I have seen we all may be over doing it.  I admit to being spoiled by having access to a lathe to fit plugs.  ;D

Offline shortbarrel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2015, 12:59:19 AM »
read all the post, enjoyed them all. only way to completely seal a breech plug is to use a false breech plug. think about it folks.

JCurtiss

  • Guest
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2015, 01:16:48 AM »

[/quote]
 That design is to fit into a tapered seat with the Hex portion shoulder standing away from the surface. 
[/quote]

Now you understand.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2015, 05:37:31 AM »
Can we make this any more complicated?
Tapered seats? No reason. Makes the plug longer for a given number of threads and requires tooling the assure the tapers will mate.
Flat works fine.
Sealed
 



Not.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2015, 06:10:12 PM »
read all the post, enjoyed them all. only way to completely seal a breech plug is to use a false breech plug. think about it folks.


A 'hook breech' could be described as a false plug.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Turtle

  • Guest
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2015, 09:34:49 PM »
 A Rolls Royce engineer once said "We find complicated solutions to simple problems"
                                         Turtle

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2015, 10:15:04 PM »
 The idea of having a perfect seal never came along until the last 50 years or so. I have unbreached a lot of original 18th and 19th century guns that never even seated in the barrel at all. That alone doesn't prove much but all the ones I unbreached never had any dangerous corrosion or anywhere near it. The one thing they had in common seemed to be that the threads were very tight fitting and sort of a forced fit. Some gunsmiths of today are out to prove that they are somehow superior by advocating perfection to the umpfh degree. This is not true in all cases. Some are just over cautious or paranoid and others are truly out for perfection.   In any case I don't think the seated plug is at all necessary and I usually just make a tight fitting plug with strong threads and seal it with plumbers pipe thread sealer.
 I tend to be in the same school of thinking as Acer or Bob Roller. As long as it is safe and the residue can't penetrate the threads what can happen? In any event it has worked for two or three hundred years and maybe longer. This doesn't mean I never seat a breech plug. I just don't think it's a life or death deal by far.  I have never seen a original shotgun that had seated plugs. I mean no seat at all.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Online Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9693
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2015, 11:38:22 PM »
The idea of having a perfect seal never came along until the last 50 years or so. I have unbreached a lot of original 18th and 19th century guns that never even seated in the barrel at all. That alone doesn't prove much but all the ones I unbreached never had any dangerous corrosion or anywhere near it. The one thing they had in common seemed to be that the threads were very tight fitting and sort of a forced fit. Some gunsmiths of today are out to prove that they are somehow superior by advocating perfection to the umpfh degree. This is not true in all cases. Some are just over cautious or paranoid and others are truly out for perfection.   In any case I don't think the seated plug is at all necessary and I usually just make a tight fitting plug with strong threads and seal it with plumbers pipe thread sealer.
 I tend to be in the same school of thinking as Acer or Bob Roller. As long as it is safe and the residue can't penetrate the threads what can happen? In any event it has worked for two or three hundred years and maybe longer. This doesn't mean I never seat a breech plug. I just don't think it's a life or death deal by far.  I have never seen a original shotgun that had seated plugs. I mean no seat at all.

The last breech plug I installed was in a GM 50 caliber with a 3/4x16 thread. I used a depth micrometer to see how deep the threads went and the made a plug that was .005 longer and screwed it in tight. I removed it to see if the crush was OK and it was so I milled it to shape in the barrel and it's been there ever since.I used a travel indicator on the lathe to establish the .005 extra length. I think the idea is to have an easily moved ball or bullet and a plug that is impossible to move. I never thought of a pipe thread and prefer to use what I KNOW will work safely.

Bob Roller

Offline shortbarrel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2015, 12:12:13 AM »
wrought iron barrels and wrought iron breech plugs, with a slight taper have stood the test of time. I have a box full of them I cut off old WR barrels at the breech. only thing that sealed then was the threads. erosion was minimal on plug and barrel

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2015, 12:32:41 AM »

That design is to fit into a tapered seat with the Hex portion shoulder standing away from the surface. 
[/quote]

Now you understand.
[/quote]

So that plug is either a Sae or a JIC plug, and it'll work fine on a hydraulic system or the like. Usually they are hollow in the front section? I guess you're suggesting making something like it, but I don't see the benefit over a standard plug. And trying to mate the tapered plug portion to the tapered barrel bore section while try to mate the rear of the barrel to the front of the tag section would be a lot more difficult, to no great advantage.
John   
John Robbins

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Breach Plug
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2015, 04:01:25 AM »
 Dave Crisalli is a graduate of Annapolis and an expert at ordinance. I believe he will tell you that no thread or so called seal will seal at the pressure of a rifle chamber. Maybe he will give us some insight here.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.