"Proof" and "View" Marks - Can someone explain the difference?

[davec2]

I was looking at the Track of the Wolf catalog the other day and came across the page with "view" mark and "proof" mark stamps.  There was no explanation of what the difference was and which ones would show up where on an original gun.  Can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks

[smart dog]

Hi Dave,
I am not sure if there is a convention about where the "view" and "proof" marks are stamped on a barrel other than both are usually on the left top side of the breech.  The view mark (crown over "V") was stamped after the rough forged barrel was proofed with a proof load at the Gunmaker's Guild London proofing house.  After that, the barrel was filed and finished and then proofed again with a load.  It was then stamped with the crown over "GP".  It was then a crime to alter the barrel in any way and many famous gunmakers were fined by the guild for filing barrels after final proof.  I believe the view and final proof private "Tower" and Birmingham proof marks looked the same and it was just important that a barrel had 2 stampings of those proofs to indicate viewing and final proofing.  On my castings of an English turn-off pistol, the London Gunmakers Guild view mark is closer to the breech and the final proof is above it (further from the breech).   

dave

[Jerry V Lape]

British proofs aren't the only ones, and every proof house all over Europe did it however they found convenient.  Proof marks are stamped on when actual proof firing is done.  There is often a provisional proof when the barrel is first made and is not yet breeched nor has it been struck to final shape.  Basically to proof the barrel blank before any labor is wasted on it.  Then the gun is built and submitted for final proof at which time the whole mechanism is involved including the breeching.  Then a view stamp or final approval stamp is applied.  The Brits sort of went nuts with stamps over the years with all sorts of load stamps and repair stamps. The systems are not static and continue to evolve so you have to develop a knowledge of what was proper proof in the time the particular arm was made.  The German proofs seem to make more sense to me. 

[davec2]

David, Jerry,

Thanks for the replies.  The reason I am asking is that I am building a brass barreled (Ed Rayl) blunderbuss for a fellow and he would like the traditional markings on the breech.  It will obviously be a 21st century copy of an 18th century gun (not trying to fool anyone here) but I would like to put the correct proof and view markings on the breech for him.  Are the ones sold by TOW correct for a late 18th century blunderbuss?...and which ones ?...they have a few.

This is the page I was looking at          http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1045/1

Based on what I know thus far I was thinking of the following two stamps:

STAMP-GR-GP      British Proof Mark

STAMP-GR-V        British View Mark

[WKevinD]

Dave,
Howard Blackmores' "British Military Firearms" 1650-1850 Has a great section on proof and view marks (pg 280-283)
I can scan and send a copy for your use if you would like. Not sure I could do it for the forum.
Did you see that those TOW stamps are on a 60-90 day backorder?
Kevin

[smart dog]

Hi Dave,
First, obviously rule out the 1813 Birmingham proof if you want the gun to represent the 18th century.  Then you need to decide if the gun is military or civilian.  If civilian then the crown over V and crown over GP would be appropriate.  That would signify a gun made within the jurisdiction of the London Gunmaker's guild (I believe within 10 miles of London).  Two stampings of the crossed scepters (Gr-CS) would also be fine as indicating a private gun proofed at the Tower.  That private tower proof also looks to me like Birmingham marks before 1813.  I cannot tell the difference between those early Birmingham marks and the tower proofs but someone else may be able to clear that up.  The civilian proof marks are always on the top of the barrel, left of center.

If the gun is British military then crossed scepters below stamp GR-A, which indicates government viewing and ownership and again crossed scepters on the tang, centered and near the junction with the barrel.  Also stamp GR-A would be stamped on the lockplate below the pan with the arrow pointed toward the flintcock. The lockplate would also have a large engraved crown with 2 large script capital letters below indicating the reigning king or queen.   All military barrel marks should be centered on the top of the barrel.  Finally, storekeeper's mark GR-SKM would be stamped on the side of the butt, although I've seen some British arms without the storekeepers mark.  

All proof marks, civilian and government, should be oriented such that they can be read from the breech with the barrel is held muzzle up.

dave

[davec2]

Sorry for the delayed "thank you" for the information you all sent.  (I have been sequestered in the California Mojave Desert again doing rocket test preparations.)  I very much appreciate the help here.  When I sort out some additional information on the build I will post what I think are the appropriate markings just to get a final confirmation from you.

And Kevin, yes I did see that the stamps on TOW were 90 days out, which may or may not be a problem.  However, I will probably make my own stamps or have them made.

Thanks again to all.