Advice on British Style Fowler--Philadelphia c1780

[ShutEyeHunter]

I got lots of good advice on the Griffin flowler a week or so back.  Decided to put another project in front of that one that had more family history.  Figure the grandkids would appreciate it.

Worked on the family tree & best guess is that my great,etc. grandfather Paul would probably have bought a fowler in Philadelphia c 1778 before heading west via the Cumberland Road to SW Pennsylvania.

Looking at Tom Grinslade's book, British-Style fowlers BS-20,21 & 22  fit the bill.

Barrels are ~55 inch round in calibers .78 to.85.  Guns run about 12 pounds.  Breech diameter is 1 5/8

Questions:
Is a barrel like that available?  Haven't seen one in the usual catalogs.  Hope it doesn't cost and arm and a leg.

BS 22 has a bunch of salvaged Brown Bess parts.  Any chance that a fowler could have been built with a salvaged Brown Bess barrel?  The Scots-Irish genes would have wanted something thrifty

[smart dog]

Hi Shuteye,
Sounds like a neat project and my Scottish genes approve.  An early model Brown Bess (46 inches, tapered round, 75-78 cal) would be entirely appropriate for a colonial restock.  Maybe, the lately departed Brits left some ruined guns behind that were salvaged by some enterprising Philadelphia gun makers.  The long barrel you describe can be ordered from several barrel makers but it will take time and the cost may be in the $300-$400 range.  Alternatively, you should be able to buy a repro Brown Bess barrel from TOW for less.  Anyway, I think your idea has historical merit.

dave   

[rich pierce]

Not sure a Bess barrel would be available to use on a fowler pre-Rev War.  There is a fine later British style fowling piece at the Old Stone Fort in Schoharie.  It's a halfstock with a wooden rib.

[ShutEyeHunter]

Smart Dog,

I was afraid that the long barrel would be expensive.

I have the Paul family rifle c. 1840, built by a western PA country gunsmith.  It's not the finest of the longrifle art, so I'm thinking corners would have been cut on the smoothbore going west, as well.

Thanks for the help!

Rich, I'm not a revolutionary war buff, but I thought that the Brits backed out of NY & NJ by the end of 1777(?).  so there may have been captured Brown Bess' hanging around.

Anyone with more historical knowledge, please correct.

[WKevinD]

I see no reason a First Model Bess barrel wouldn't work. 48" x 75-78 cal. 1740-1760s

[rich pierce]

ShutEye, anything is possible.  But the war was not over in 1777, and guns were needed for soldiers.  But the length and caliber are appropriate.  No need to cast it as a recycled Bess, but stories are personal.

[Keb]

They are available but I can't say where. Mike Brooks has a 6' barreled fowler for sale so they are out there. I don't know where you'd get a barrel that long though. I had a 56" .62 cal oct / round made by Larry Horrigan up in Michigan. Mostly, I've only been able to get 52" barrels made. Check out Grinslade's book. There are many American fowlers in there with tapered round barrels. I believe most barrels along with locks were imported from G.B. before the Rev War. I've read the colonies were not able to produce locks & barrels. However, I can't quote chapter & verse.

I see no reason a First Model Bess barrel wouldn't work. 48" x 75-78 cal. 1740-1760s

If I'm not mistaken, those were only 46" long. Track of the Wolf has what Colerain calls it's 1st model Bess barrel in stock. They run close to $300.00 unbreeched. The plug is > $25.00.

[BOB HILL]

I did'nt have long to study it,but I saw a fowler built with old Bess parts about 25-30 yr. ago in a gunshop in Waverly Va. If I recall correctly, it was a half stock.         Bob

[Longknife]

Greg Christian can make you a tapered round 75 cal. barrel up to 55 inches long at a very reasonable price. here is his e-mail address....ghchristian2001@yahoo.com

[Mike Brooks]

Just a couple thoughts here. Those big New York and Philly fowling guns were built with wild fowling in mind, they would probably be less than ideal for anything west of the eastern coast and large river systems there in, expensive to shoot at anything but masses flocks of sitting fowl. I've seen some real nifty restocked Besses, some in attractive curly maple. Your pioneer relatives would have to pack a bunch of lead to shoot those big bores, probably something in a smaller bore size would be more appropriate.
Beware of cheap long barrels. Probably made from tubing. If that doesn't bother you then go for it.

[ShutEyeHunter]

Thanks, all.

I think I have more homework to do.  (But that's the fun part)

After reading Mike's post, I now understand why the barrels are so long and the map in Grinslade's shows the British Style fowlers coming from the coastal areas.  

I'll take another look at Jim Chamber's Pennsylvania fowler.  20 bore does seem more practical.  http://www.flintlocks.com/rifles03.htm

Great, etc.j grandad Paul was in the Washington County militia.  Think I'll take a look at the spectrum of arms that were used.  Probably an excuse for another book.

Thanks again.,

[Mike Brooks]

Probably an english export grade fowling gun would be what your relative would have taken to SW PA. They were the most economical guns on the market.
 Walnut stocked, brass mounted, 24 to 16 bore, 42" to 48" long, oct/rnd or all round. 1st pattern of acorn finial for the trigger guard, 2" wide BP (chambers sells a nice one) solid british stye sideplate . (Chambers also sells an excellent examble of these.)
 Simple shell carving at the breech and simply engraved mounts (british style engraving of course.)
Actually this type of gun is exactly what Sir William Johnson was ordering from England to supple his Indian Allies and later his white tory allies with. Very common guns in Colonial America.

[ShutEyeHunter]

Thanks for the advice, Mike. I'll build one as you suggest in 16 bore. I'll post pix when I get it done-- won't look as good,as yours but I'll blame it on Friday manufacture after a few too many pints at the pub;-)

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

This is a very interesting question.  Here is a English fowling/trade gun that is of the period.  Also, it is not so "high end" that would only be owned by a wealthy person.  This style gun is most often seen with the side plate engraved as a dragon, this one is the same outline but engraved in a nice floral pattern.   It has English proof marks, marked "LONDON" on the barrel (probably showing it was made elsewhere, like Birmingham).  Barrel is round, caliber 0.58, 37" long, probably originally about 6" longer.  If you are ever in SW Pa, let me know and you can come & take measurements & photos.

Jim









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[Mike Brooks]

Yep, that is a great example of a typical low end English export gun made for the North American trade, although I believe that one was made just after the Rev. War.
 There were far more imported fowling guns in America then were made by colonial American gun makers.

[Bob Roller]

Guys,

This is a very interesting question.  Here is a English fowling/trade gun that is of the period.  Also, it is not so "high end" that would only be owned by a wealthy person.  This style gun is most often seen with the side plate engraved as a dragon, this one is the same outline but engraved in a nice floral pattern.   It has English proof marks, marked "LONDON" on the barrel (probably showing it was made elsewhere, like Birmingham).  Barrel is round, caliber 0.58, 37" long, probably originally about 6" longer.  If you are ever in SW Pa, let me know and you can come & take measurements & photos.

Jim

That looks like a little used gun to me. That flimsy screw that serves as a frizzen pivot plus the heavy frizzen would not have held up for very long had that been a high use gun. Also the lock inletting still looks good.
Nice clean old fowler and seldom seen in this condition.

Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

The frizzen and spring are certainly later (past  40 years) replacements.

[ShutEyeHunter]

Guys,

This is a very interesting question.  Here is a English fowling/trade gun that is of the period.  Also, it is not so "high end" that would only be owned by a wealthy person.  This style gun is most often seen with the side plate engraved as a dragon, this one is the same outline but engraved in a nice floral pattern.   It has English proof marks, marked "LONDON" on the barrel (probably showing it was made elsewhere, like Birmingham).  Barrel is round, caliber 0.58, 37" long, probably originally about 6" longer.  If you are ever in SW Pa, let me know and you can come & take measurements & photos.

Jim

Thanks, Jim for the pix.  I was back in Washington PA a couple of weeks ago (funeral, unfortunately, but part of the cycle of life...)

Next time I get back, I'll take you up on your offer to measure and photo.

This is the kind of gun I've been thinking about-simple/cheap/serviceable.

I appreciate the sages on the board for pointing out that a whole bunch of these were imported.

Opens up a new set of options for furniture and engraving.

Thanks again!