Brush or no brush

[BartSr]

Just curious, and would like to poll the board with a simple response...."I do"   OR   I don't.  Don't want to open the entire range of cleaning discussion so here is the question:

Do you use a brush on the bore when cleaning. I do.

Don't.
I had a brush come out of it's crimped end down at the plug end of the barrel. 

[Molly]

DTS:

The photo shows both 2.5 inch and 2 inch round.  For the 50 cal I mostly use 2.5 but for this illustration I tossed in some 2 inch patches. Jag is the standard TOW 50 cal.  But keep in mind I add bulk with the .018 dry shooting patch.

The question of the diameter or size of the jag is a puzzle.  I don't recall ever seeing jags offered by diameter, always by cal....unless I just completely missed it.

I'm also surprised that there have been no more comments following the photo.  From the photo there are only two basic conclusions.

1.  Brushes help clean.

OR

2.  The bore was not sufficiently cleaned with water before dry patch cleaning began.

As to #2, when the water comes out of the bore as clear as it went in how much more water cleaning is needed?  I am not trying to sell anyone on the idea of using a brush, BTW.

[davec2]

Molly,

Thanks for all the effort that went into the cleaning process and the photographic display of the process results.  For myself, I have cleaned bores both with brushing and without.  I never did the kind of test you did, but I think I will be brushing a lot more now as I cannot see any down side to using a brush and there appears to be a positive up side.  I use a brush for all my modern firearms, why not for a muzzle stuffer ?

As for those who are frightened by the thought of a brush coming off the end of the rod and getting stuck in the bore....I have had that happen twice...once in a .50 and the other in a .45.  I just cut a piece of thin wall hobby store brass tubing (just small enough in diameter to slide down the bore) and a little longer than the brush and soldered a disk on the back end.  I dropped that down the bore and pushed it down over the brush with the ram rod.  The brass tube encases the brush and it can then be dumped right out of the bore.  I have one of these for each bore size I have, but since I made them, I have never had an occasion to use one again.  Saves a lot of swearing and pulling the breech plug.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Molly:  my question was aimed at diameter in inches.  If I use a TOW 50 cal jag in a 50 cal rifle, I find I cannot use two thicknesses of FLANNELETTE (diaper material) 'cause it's too tight.  So I reduce the diameter about .015" and recut the grooves.  Then I can use two thicknesses of cleaning patch and am sure to get to the bottom of the grooves.  I tear strips 2" wide and cut them off square for my patches, for a .50 cal rifle.

Here's a tip to remove a brush that has pulled out of the crimped end.  Use a tow worm!  It will engage the brush with enough friction contact to withdraw it.  A steel rod with a handle is recommended, but a wooden one will work too, in a pinch.

[Molly]

DTS:  Sorry, forgot to add the material, which is just the run of the mill cotton purchased at most any retail store.  I don't use the "ribbed" material however.  I understand the question on the jag now.  I don't have the ability to reduce the diameter but actually don't personally feel it's necessary.  While I cannot put two patches on the jag either, I can add the small shooting patch which adds bulk to the head but not the length of the jag behind the head.  I also use small 22 cal patches to do the same thing on my 40 cal.  And in both cases it's all I can do to get it down and out.  The tow worm idea is excellent!

Dave:  Thanks for the comment and suggestion on removal of a brush should it be necessary.  I did have one come off the rod once and after the initial panic attack I fished it out.  Tried several approached but did not think of either of those mentioned above.  I think in the end I was able to get a length of small cord entangled in the brush and it pulled out but it was only maybe 18 inches from the business end of the bbl.

[Daryl]

Molly - for years, I used my 3/8" electric drill held in my bench vise as a poor man's lathe. It works. I even 'turned' a nipple that used small pistol primers - like the ones from the late 1800's - early 1900's used in competitions and pictured in Ned Robert's book. I used files for turning the steel to the diameters needed for threading.  It is interesting on what you can do at home with a minimal of tools, if need be.
Turning jags smaller is such a breeze with a 3/8" or 1/2" drill held in a vice. 1st thing is to cut off the brass threads, centre-drill, tap to 8x32 or 10x32, then insert and CA a steel threaded shaft - the end of a long machine screw.  Then, holding the screw in the 'chuck' of the drill (in the bench vice) turn with a fine file until it is the right size for double patch.  They really do make a difference in the cleaning of the grooves. Course, with a tight ball/patch combination, there is no buildup, anyway.

[Molly]

OK.....

Sounds like the object in cutting down the diameter is to be able to get a tighter jag/patch combo?  But I already think I get it as tight as possible by using the small unlubed shooting patch under the larger patch.  What am I missing?

[WadePatton]

I'm solidly in your camp "Candle".  Also use one to clean the toilet bowls.  Different one of course but nothing works like a brush.  I will add however that we brush people are somewhat outnumbered by the no brush people but THEY ALL HAVE DIRTY BORES!  yuck!!

You have not seen my bores and I am sure that tow cleans my bore perfectly well for this lifetime. 

[Molly]

Wade:  Maybe we should start a discussion entitled:

"Is tow more like a patch OR more like a brush?"

Early on I expressed the personal opinion that tow was more brush like than patch like so I counted your initial response as "a brush"!!

Similar to one person who uses some sort of "cleaning pad" material.

But that's just my opinion.

[WadePatton]

I would argue that tow is more like a patch because both are made from natural plant fibers.  The orientation and coarseness of tow would be more random, but it's no brush.  The fiber is compressed inside the bore same as patches/jag (and there's no need for doubling thicknesses).  If tow were arranged such that all the fiber radiated from the longitudinal axis, then I'd think it to be more akin to a brush.  Tow is also absorbent like the patch, unlike the brush.

Those plastic scouring pads contain abrasives for finishing metal, I wouldn't put that in my bore. 

I'd rather not be counted as a brusher.  I loathe brushing a bore, but have done it hundreds of times, and do not ever plan to do it again.  But it's your scorecard, count it up however you wish.

[Daryl]

I hear you Wade - I no longer use brushes in my modern guns either. The various chemicals clean the bores perfectly, do it - no brushing necessary.

In our ML's the only chemical required to clean the bore perfectly, is H2O. No brushing necessary.

[halfstock]

Just an observation, if you use tow then you "do" brush.

[hammer]

Simple way to remove an errant brush?    A length of stiff wire with the end turned over to form a hook.

I use a brush.  Can never get the borer perfectly clean without.  Whether water or water and detergent, etc.    I theorise it may be a factor of the lube.    Most are oily or waxy and leave a deposit, don't know what the heat and pressure also do to it.   H2O based won't clean mine alone, solvent based help along with brushing.    Perhaps some lube/fouling deposits react better than others.

If using a brush then helps to give the rod a twist when at the bottom.  Then easier to withdraw.

[Molly]

Ah HA!  We "brusher"are gaining strength.  But I did agree to take Wade over to the no brush group.

Hammer:  That's sort of the way I got the one out which came off the rod.  It was a short stiff "hook" lashed and rolled around a wooden range rod.  Caused a panic at first but came out pretty easy.

[smokinbuck]

With all due respect to everyone who has participated, don't
you think 4 pages has pretty well covered a pretty simple subject ?
Mark

[Molly]

Of course NOT!  With almost 3500 members, we still have a lot to hear from.  Don't need lengthy comments just a simple yes or no.  So, Mark, how about it...do you brush.

[smokinbuck]

Nope, no brushing in this camp.
Mark

[Daryl]

OK.....

Sounds like the object in cutting down the diameter is to be able to get a tighter jag/patch combo?  But I already think I get it as tight as possible by using the small unlubed shooting patch under the larger patch.  What am I missing?

I think so- you can have a VERY tight jag and patch, that is so snug on the lands, that you can barely get it down or into the bore, yet it might be loose or not even touching the bottoms of the grooves and certainly not the bottom corners of the groove/land.

Reducing the diameter of the jag to allow enough "Patch" to get to the bottoms & CORNERS of the grooves is very important in getting the fouling out. That is why some of us get super clean bores without having to use a brush. We use a patch with water that does all of the cleaning required.

[flinter49]

Nope no brush. What's TOW?

[Molly]

TOW is a natural "hemp-like" fiber.  Very course in texture.  Often used in fire starter kits and common in gun bore cleaning.  There are a couple web sites which offer it.  

A "worm" is used on the end of the cleaning rod to wind and wrap a wad of the stuff around for cleaning.

If you are familiar with old style brown hemp rope (which may not be made of hemp today) that's what it looks like.

[flinter49]

Thanks for the info Molly.