Cleaning Original Longrifle?

[mr. no gold]

Hi Dave, to your question, usually the only obscurant to marks and so forth is a heavy rust build up. With that you have to decide what is to be done, if anything.  Grime will almost always betray the presence of a mark or signature on a barrel; lock plates, too. With the latter though, rust is usually the culprit. My one really good black gun is a neat rifle by J. Gonter and is so grimy that it makes VT's gun look new. The former is loaded with grime/rust, and the engraving is barely visible, but does show up. I have been told by several people that a little cleaning wouldn't hurt it, but I stay my hand at that. I did apply a good coat of Goddard's Cabinet Wax and when I wiped the residue away some of the grime did come away on the cloth. The barrel has an even coat of oxide, (rust?) on the surface, but the engraved signature still shows up. I have seen only a few extreme cases where a signature or mark could not be distinguished at all. As I recall most of them were highly worn before the rusting process began. On making a decision to clean the barrel, especially where the signature is located, you need to work carefully so that you don't deface or remove what you are trying to discover. Many were lightly engraved, or stamped and too much effort may harm them. Hope that this helps a bit.
Dick

[smart dog]

Hi Dick,
Thank you for the response.  It still seems clear that there is some dilemma about leaving a gun as found, perhaps stabilizing any decay, and lightly cleaning it to reveal important details. I think it will always be a grey area and open for some debate.  The message I take away from this excellent discussion is that untouched long rifles are very rare and an owner of one should understand that and preserve that condition for the next generation regardless of the lack of visual appeal.  On the other hand, there are many more already cleaned guns that may appeal more visually to many (me included) and can remain in that condition while still preserving their current historical value.  If you own an untouched rifle but want it cleaned to satisfy your visual taste, then sell or trade it to someone who will preserve its condition for a gun already cleaned up.  To my mind, that sums up much of this discussion.  Do I have that wrong?

dave 

[WadePatton]

Hi Dick,
Thank you for the response...  If you own an untouched rifle but want it cleaned to satisfy your visual taste, then sell or trade it to someone who will preserve its condition for a gun already cleaned up.  To my mind, that sums up much of this discussion.  Do I have that wrong?

dave 

That is the message I'm hoping gets "out there" to those who get their "new" hands on originals.  Absolutely. 

[blienemann]

I’ve also enjoyed this discussion and the other on reconverting.  Relative value may affect feelings.

I know very few collectors of old rifles ($15,000 and up) who maintain the piece as they acquired it - converted, not overly cleaned, wire or inlays missing, etc.  As a student, these are very important to me, as I can believe and learn from what I see, and I can guess what should be.

Many high end collectors look for complete arms that look like the showpiece the maker intended – thus back to flint, barrel to original length, inlays and wire replaced, wood replaced, nice finish but mellow, all done well, aged appropriately and new work blended to old so you can’t tell.  These are what we usually see in the fine photo books being published today.  As a student, they probably represent the rifle as new – but I can’t be sure.  Some or several others have inserted their thinking ahead of me.

Dealers know their customers, find rifles that might fit a particular buyer, have the work done accordingly, raise the value, perhaps “replace history” and complete the transaction. 

A few fine restoration specialists provide this work with proper parts, techniques, and aged so you can’t tell.  They make their living in this manner, and say that they are putting the piece back as it was originally intended to be viewed and enjoyed.  Having studied many fine old arms, they can duplicate the look and feel of old wood, metal, use and wear, vs. the faux aging popular on contemporary arms.

I think I like the Williamsburg/Wallace/Gary suggestion of doing any restoration so you “can’t see changes from 6 feet, but can see from 6 inches.  Have not seen that done, yet.

I think it is human nature to want to find a piece with history, and then to have the opportunity to study and decide what to do with it.  We may be disappointed when someone else has gone ahead, rather than us getting to see and make those decisions ourselves.  In many cases, values will eventually influence thinking.  Bob

[Dogshirt]

And once again the constituency of this site has driven a potential enthusiast away. Did he listen to your advice? No. But it was his to do what he wished. But because he chose NOT to do what YOU would have done, you all kicked him through the dirt. It was HIS rifle, not yours or some imaginary future collector, HIS to do as he wished.
THIS and MANY other insulting attitudes are why I will NEVER recommend this site to ANYONE.
Congratulations on driving yet ANOTHER enthusiast away from an already shrinking hobby/sport.

[Ky-Flinter]

Mr. Dogshirt,

You are mistaken in your accusations.  VTbuck223 has not left ALR.  Quite the contrary, he was signed in as recently as this evening.

-Ron

[WadePatton]

And once again the constituency of this site has driven a potential enthusiast away. Did he listen to your advice? No. But it was his to do what he wished. But because he chose NOT to do what YOU would have done, you all kicked him through the dirt. It was HIS rifle, not yours or some imaginary future collector, HIS to do as he wished.
THIS and MANY other insulting attitudes are why I will NEVER recommend this site to ANYONE.
Congratulations on driving yet ANOTHER enthusiast away from an already shrinking hobby/sport.

"Black" rifles are so rare that it may be worth the "risk" of offending someone who doesn't fully appreciate them for what they are.  I personally don't think Mr VTBuck is so thin-skinned, and don't harbor any ill will towards him.  I do believe he made a bit of a mistake, which we all do.  The more folks who choose to learn from this example, the more chances we have of (more fully) preserving another longrifle (or any artifact) for the generations to come after us.  Is this not large part of our mission?

I have recommended this site over and over again and reposted this very thread in two places on Facebook--because of the lessons and example it presents. I direct them to reply #69 as well.  If this exposure "saves" another dark gun, then it all evens out. 

If it saves two, we've gained ground.   

[vtbuck223]

And once again the constituency of this site has driven a potential enthusiast away. Did he listen to your advice? No. But it was his to do what he wished. But because he chose NOT to do what YOU would have done, you all kicked him through the dirt. It was HIS rifle, not yours or some imaginary future collector, HIS to do as he wished.
THIS and MANY other insulting attitudes are why I will NEVER recommend this site to ANYONE.
Congratulations on driving yet ANOTHER enthusiast away from an already shrinking hobby/sport.

Dogshirt….your comment is as true and valid as any of the others on this post. The back and forth in these post often becomes reductive.  I have been around long enough not to be “driven off” but others undoubtedly have and  will. The truth of the matter is…I did not wake up one morning and decide to clean my rifle….but rather thought about it for years….I am confident my decision was right for me….otherwise…as I said before…”I wouldn’t have done it”.  The confusing part for most newcomers to the site…are the seemingly arbitrary opinions and contradictions that arise….even from individual posters. Say one thing here…say another there…say this and do that. There are many, many examples of this. Ultimately…I think that responses like the ones here…..and especially those that are contradictory to other opinions and positions expressed elsewhere…do a great disservice to this whole field. It does not lend itself to an open discussion…but drives people into secrecy in a field that already has too much of that.
As I said previously…I very much appreciate the passion on this forum. That is what makes you all and this site a unique place. Mr. No Gold....stated in one of his  posts…that I didn’t like what people had to say….not true…I think that if you look at my responses ….you will see that I consistently said that I respect everyone’s opinions.  Now…I don’t  think that it is helpful when people are crass….but I don’t take that personally….and I believe that it simply reflects poorly upon that individual. (I’m not saying that I am always above that…I have regretted many a comment  in my life.)
I don’t know how many people actually read all of the posts on here and take the time to “listen” to what is being said….but I have. By “listen” I mean….read between the lines… to what is said and unsaid…and connecting posts and topics that may otherwise seem unrelated.  Ironically, the posts of many who have expressed their displeasure here are the same people that contributed to my decision to do what I have done. Some people  will read this and say “what is he talking about”….but many others will know exactly what I am talking about.  These are  some of the contradictions that I alluded to earlier.
Somebody commented  that when anyone posts about changing anything on a rifle….the “usual guys” speak out against it. I know that to be true…as I have read all of them.  If you go back to my opening post here you will see that my statement is “I know that opinions vary on whether or not to clean brass and silver on originals”. But….I have also read all of the others posts as well….and and the contradictions…which I will get to. So….when I posted my question here…. After years of contemplating….I had already made up my mind….and I wasn’t asking for opinions on whether or not to do it….but for those that do and have…(and they are legion)….simply what do they do? My acceptance of but seeming disregard of the opposing  opinions was taken for arrogance….but  it was understood only in the context of this post…. and didn’t take into account that  I had already read the same responses numerous times and contemplated this for years.
Before I get to the contradictions…let  me  give a brief caveat. I have owned only three longrifles ….many more  antique muskets and rifles of other persuasions. I have never cleaned the brass or silver on any of them…..would never even dream of it.  Why now?....well to be honest….in large part because…YOU convinced me!  I want to bring enough of the color through the brass and silver to see this “piece of art” as the “artist” intended it. 
Now for the contradictions.  I could literally fill a book with examples of what I am talking about. I could also cut and paste….the exact quotes and photos and threads to show here….but that is unnecessary. Instead I am just going to explain a  simple and benign example of what I am talking about.
A very “shiny”….heavily…heavily….heavily… cleaned rifle was posted. Absolutely no patina anywhere. The wood was shiny…refinished….not a scratch on it. The brass and silver even shinier.  The immediate response (from some opposed  here to me making any changes to my rifle)…..was “wow….what a beautiful rifle….finest example ever seen from this maker”.  No mention of brillo pads….or negative comment about the current state of the rifle at all.  And as said….I could fill a book with such responses.  Even put a few about Howard’s Feed n Wax in there….again no“you are ruining your rifle” responses….there…just “beautiful” and “wow”.  And there in lies the conundrum….how can you respond like that to a rifle that looks like it is brand new out of the box…and then criticize someone who simply wants to bring some color through the black.  Either….there are real gray areas….opinions change very rapidly…are applied arbitrarily….or there are genuine contradictions not only between individuals but within individuals.
And as far as the “black” what does that actually show you about the history of the rifle...other than it was unused and hung over a fireplace for the last one hundred years? (Remember….I appreciate patina and “black” myself…never removed even a bit from any of the other rifles or muskets I own or have ever owned. But this is a “work of art”….it is going to hang on my wall for the rest of my life…and I want to see it with a bit of color)
This post is way too long as it is….and I could literally write a book. Don’t even get me really going  on the “Lonrgrifle is art”….or the ever arbitrary and changing definition of leave it “as found” …(ridiculous when you read the post on converting back to flint.) 
Ultimately, I chose not to continue the back and forth….because it just isn’t worth it…..but I would say that I think there does need to be a little “soul searching”….
And again…to beat the dead horse…and sorry to those who suggested it…because it is ridiculous…no I didn’t  and nobody would….want to trade my rifle for a “cleaned one”…..thank you anyway….I like my rifle and want it just the way it is…..
Now…having said all that….I really like rifles “in the black” also…..I currently own another new England long rifle in this condition…”as found” I guess you could say???….I have no plans to touch the brass and silver….I like it the way it is….c’est la vie

[smokinbuck]

VT,
Very well said! Opinions are like noses, everyone has one, but ultimately yours is the one that matters most.
Mark

[debnal]

I have been following this thread with much interest. It has been a very good, if not heated at times, topic. Over 40 years I have modified my views on restoration. I think I have a very good compromise to this discussion, at least for me.
I have included several pictures of a gun I just got. It is a colonial fowler that could be from the Hills shop, specifically attributed to John Hills. It is in "as found" condition. Some would leave it as is. But 12 inches of the forestock has been ripped off and all the ramrod pipes are missing. Additionally, the lock has been converted to percussion and the toe of the but has a period repair. My initial plan, subject to modification is:
1. replace the missing forestock wood.
2. replace the ramrod pipes.
3. leave the lock in its current configuration, although a competent conversion to flintlock could be done.
4. leave the butt repair as is.
5. Publish it so in the future a record exists of its original configuration. (thus the value of this forum) once posted here, it is on record.

All my planned restoration can easily be put back to the original state the gun was found in, and I believe that to be a very important point.
I did this with a Revolutionary War Kentucky rifle, purportedly from Bunker Hill, I got last year (published KRA bulletin Fall 2014) My restoration was such that it could be easily put back in its "as found" condition. Also, by publishing in the KRA bulletin, no one should be fooled in the future.
This is my current plan, subject to modification.
Al