hawken patch box question

[Joe S.]

just wondering about different patch boxes used on hawken rifles.I have seen a couple variations of the pineapple type and the Mariano and a variation of that one.I'm wondering on real early rifles if they used boxes closer to those seen on rifles built in the east.Something their father may have used I would think Sam might use early on.I been looking around and can't dig up anything and have learned never say never.

[galamb]

Here is three patchboxes that are not typically associated with Hawken rifles, at least in the pre-cut styles sold by the builders supply shops.

The first is from the J&S Atcheson rifle (1836 if my memory is correct) in the style typically referred to as National Road's style.

The second is from a rifle detailed by Doc White a good number of years back. Another J&S with far more Maryland traits than St. Louis Plains/Mountain architecture.

The last is a J&S that turned up in an auction a few years back. I personally call it the "stubby" Hawken since at some point in it's life the barrel was cut back to 27 1/2".

So perhaps the "rule" is, when discussing Hawken patchboxes, there are no rules

[Mtn Meek]

just wondering about different patch boxes used on hawken rifles.I have seen a couple variations of the pineapple type and the Mariano and a variation of that one.I'm wondering on real early rifles if they used boxes closer to those seen on rifles built in the east.Something their father may have used I would think Sam might use early on.I been looking around and can't dig up anything and have learned never say never.

Hey Joe,

To elaborate a little more on what Galamb said, J&S Hawken rifles have a number of different style of patch boxes. I've grouped several in the montage below and included the three that Galamb posted above.  As you can see, some have Pennsylvania style patch boxes, some have rectangular shaped boxes, some are oval shaped with simple finial, and then you have the utilitarian long oval on the Peterson Hawken and the very elaborate patch box on the Moses White Hawken, which might be a precursor to the pineapple patch box seen on later S. Hawken rifles.



As Galamb alluded to, several of these were probably acquired from commercial supply houses such as Tryon.

Because we don't have good dates on any of the rifles other than the Atchison Hawken, there is not a direct answer to your query, "I'm wondering on real early rifles if they used boxes closer to those seen on rifles built in the east?"  But probably, yes, they did.

There are Kentucky style rifles in private collections marked "C&J Hawken" (Christian and Jacob) and "S. Hawken" that were made before they moved to St. Louis.

The C&J Hawken patch box is shown below.  The S. Hawken Kentucky rifle is pictured in Charles E. Hanson, Jr., The Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History, page 9.  It appears to have a patch box similar to this C&J Hawken pattern.



But it is also apparent that, after moving to St. Louis, Jake and Sam used what ever components that were available to them at the time.  How else to explain the almost military style patch box on the Peterson Hawken and the wide variety we see on the others?  The oval shaped patch box with the simple finial is a pattern they used for decades as it is found on a rifle that might date to the early 1830's as well as rifles from the 1840's and into the late S. Hawken period of the 1850's.  So the patch box by itself, is not a good indicator as to whether a rifle is early or late.

[Joe S.]

Thanks guys for your time in putting pictures up for a look. Been going about my hawken build at a snail's pace and still doing a little homework as I go.I planned on using a patch box on this build but then started thinking about it and figured seeing how its going to be flint maybe an early style patch box might be better looking.Sure seems like they used whatever they could find and it looks as though patch boxes really can't date the rifle.

[smylee grouch]

I have often wondered about those simple oval patch boxes, could they have been put on later in the life of the rifle?

[Mtn Meek]

It is possible, smylee.

There is a Sam Hawken rifle with a brass patch box that looks like it was put on later in life.  And if you look at that rectangular patch box on the James Dunn Hawken, the way the hinge is attached to the stock doesn't look like the work of a skilled and knowledgeable gunsmith.  It and the other repairs to the rifle may have been done by a frontier blacksmith.

But, the oval patch box on the Sublette-Beale Hawken has Sublette's name written inside the box and is integral to the history of the rifle.  Also, the buffalo engraved on the lid is similar to two other J&S Hawken rifles.  Nothing to indicate it was installed later in life.



And the patch box on the J&S Hawken in the MHS collection looks like it is as old and pitted as the butt plate.

[Chuck Burrows]

The oval box in the bottom left of Mtn Meek's post on the so-called Peterson rifle is a close copy of those used on the the M1814/17 rifles with which Jake was familiar since he was working at the armory when those rifles were in production. The cheek piece on that particular rifles is also a close copy of those used on the M1814/17 rifles.

FWIW - adding a patch box (later ones are often called cap boxes by modern collectors, but in period patch box was the term used.

The patch box on the Medina rifle (actually an 1840's era Hawken , not an 1830's and most probably built by the Hawken Shop subsidiary, Hoffman and Campbell) matches one from a Tryon catalog picture in the book, "The Plains Rifle" , so was very likely a purchased product rather than a shop built one.

[Joe S.]

would it be safe to say boxes like Modena and boxes that appear to be "eastern" looking would or could have been tryon pieces?Just thinking the earliest hawken rifles would have had an eastern influence. Then there's the armory influence to think about.One things for certain a hawken question will spawn a few others.

[Mtn Meek]

In my opinion, yes.  But I submit the composite picture below of patch boxes on a sampling of St. Louis, Lancaster, and Philadelphia rifles and let you draw your own conclusions.



The number of different gunmakers that used the pattern and their wide geographic distribution indicates a commercial supplier, and as Chuck stated in his last post, The Plains Rifle by Charles E. Hanson, Jr, shows a page from an 1874 Tryon catalog that has patch box patterns close to what we see above.

It appears that Tryon offered a basic pattern with no piercing in the finial and a simple lobe for a tip like on the Medina Hawken.  The gun stocker could then modify it by shaping whatever detail he wanted.  Another possibility is that the Tryon workers made variations on the basic theme.

The time span (1830's to 1870's) over which this pattern was popular is also interesting.  The Gumpf rifle is likely pre-1840 and the Drepperd post-1830 (Gordon).  Deringer was active building Indian Trade Rifles as early as 1809, but his fine rifles for the commercial trade with these fancy patch boxes were likely made in the 1830's and 1840's.  By the 1850's, his company was focused on producing his famous pocket pistols.  The Tryon company also had a long run.  Three generations made guns from 1811 to 1872, after which time the company focused on retail operations.  George Tryon operated the company by himself from 1811 to 1836, and the company name was simply "TRYON".  In 1836, he brought his son, Edward K., in as a partner, and the company name changed to "TRYON SON & CO.".  In 1843, after George had been retired a couple years, the company name was changed to "E.K. TRYON".  Tryon rifles are found with barrels and locks marked with all three stamps.  Nearly all the Tryon rifles in James Gordon's collection with this pattern patch box have back-action percussion locks and probably date from the 1840's, 50's, and 60's.  Leman came along later (opened his shop in 1834) and would eventually become the dominant supplier of trade guns and trade rifles in the 1850's, 60's, and 70's.  The Leman rifle shown above could be as late as the 1870's.

[Joe S.]

interesting indeed, thanks for the info.Sure looks like they may have come from the same supply or there's a shared pattern for making them.